President-Elect Trump taking time today to discuss the dangers of vaccinations.

You claimed that that without vaccination polio would return, but that is false... all the diagnoses of polio eliminated by the diagnostic change will NEVER come back, that is my point. Calling this a "red herring" and then moving the goal posts by referencing other countries' polio rates seems like poor attempt at diversion.

It may be that the polio vaccine was very effective world wide, and I would even assume it was (although I would be interested in better understanding other factors, including the possibility that these countries simply adopted new criteria as the US did). However, the US is not "world wide" and the FACT is that in the US the decrease in polio incidence is DIRECTLY tied to diagnostic changes (not to mention a few other factors other than the vaccine).

Your assertion that there is "clearly obvious effectiveness of the polio vaccine," is false when it comes to the US.



And this is the problem with many "pro vaxxers" you refuse to incorporate relevant data unless it fits your narrative. I mean this is so basic... we need to know how effective the vaccine is, (i.e. how many less people come down with the disease after vaccination) in order to make a rational, informed decision.

I have proven sufficiently that this information is not readily available nor sufficiently considered, and your response is to bury your head in the sand and re-state tired propaganda. What is funny/sad, is that our ability to track reduction of disease, as flawed as it is, is still far and beyond our ability to capture adverse events, which is testament to the sad state of our current vaccine program.

But don't let that stop you from claiming "safe and effective!" Just please don't claim to be "pro science," as you are actively rejecting the most basic of scientific inquiries.

So to sum up... you conceded the fact that the polio vaccine was effective world wide.... but at the same time claim that the same vaccine was not effective in the US. :confused:
If it was effective world wide... that means it is effective PERIOD.

I'll say it again... as long a there is a single child in the world with polio, all children in all countries are at risk for getting the disease. That's the reason we all share the small risk involved with the vaccine.

If everyone had the same mentality as you anti-vaxers... nobody in the US would be vaccinated, meaning there would be no herd immunity that you anti-vaxers enjoy the benefits of... and it would only take a single infected kid to be imported from another country to cause an epidemic in the US... that's what I was talking about
 
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So to sum up... you conceded the fact that the polio vaccine was effective world wide.... but at the same time claim that the same vaccine was not effective in the US. :confused:
If it was effective world wide... that means it is effective PERIOD.

I have no real information on worldwide polio or vaccination efforts and I assume you don't either, as you don't even know (or care) about the data in the US... Also, in order to be "effective worldwide," it would need to be proven effective in the US, right? You are failing on all fronts here... maybe if you make an insult or two and proclaim "safe and effective" over and over you will "win" this argument. I will admit, I'm am definitely tiring of this "debate" as you cannot even respond to basic information, such as the FACT that a change in diagnostic criteria would result in a permanent reduction in cases.

I'll say it again... as long a there is a single child in the world with polio, all children in all countries are at risk for getting the disease. That's the reason we all share the small risk involved with the vaccine.

LOL! Maybe if you just repeat this over and over it will magically become true?

If everyone had the same mentality as you anti-vaxers... nobody in the US would be vaccinated, meaning there would be no herd immunity that you anti-vaxers enjoy the benefits of... and it would only take a single infected kid to be imported from another country to cause an epidemic in the US... that's what I was talking about

Don't let facts stop you from repeating this tired mantra. Hyperbole and fear-mongering have been a most-effective tool for pro-vaxxers, however, this tactic is losing effectiveness. Unless pro vaxxers actually begin to acknowledge the MANY inconvenient truths surrounding vaccination and/or present rational rebuttals and/or necessary changes, I'm afraid the program is destined for failure.

I hope one day that you recognize the flaw(s) in your position, best of luck to you.
 
There is no debate. Vaccines are safe. They are effective. They save lives. To deny this requires a few things. First, it requires rejection of a mountain of science. Not a study or two, but a large amount of medical research. If a mass amount of evidence doesn't convince @PhitePhan , what will? Why even waste our time talking to you here about it? If you are willing to bury your head in the sand and reject all the data, which data could we show you to change your mind? Second, if these vaccines are bullshit like you say, one of two things must be true about the scientists and doctors who promote vaccines. Either we are all grossly incompetent and have all come to the wrong conclusions on a matter so simple that a laymen on an MMA with no relevant education was able to outsmart us, or we are all evil and are participating in some nefarious plot against you.
 
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The kid who got paralyzed at school from a flu shot says you don't know what you're talking about.

Billions of flu vaccines have been administered, and by far, the most common side effects are mild. Like most everything in the world, rare adverse effects happen. People don't say water is unsafe to drink because of the rare occurrence of hyponatremia. People are still going to get GBS regardless if they've had a flu vaccine or not. Most cases have nothing to do with vaccines. And most people who get GBS recover fully.
 
Billions of flu vaccines have been administered, and by far, the most common side effects are mild.
I'm glad you admit that vaccines are not safe for everyone.

And that is the reason why the debate is not over.
 
I'm glad you admit that vaccines are not safe for everyone.

And that is the reason why the debate is not over.

No debate. Vaccinations are recommend for most all persons, with rare exceptions.
 
The kid who got paralyzed at school from a flu shot says you don't know what you're talking about.




Something tells me you haven't gone very far in your education. I keep reading your posts and your ability to think critically is, at best, basic.
 
Something tells me you haven't gone very far in your education. I keep reading your posts and your ability to think critically is, at best, basic.
There's a whole lot of educated fools on college campus. It's hard to give someone common sense.
 
This is one issue where the hippies and the conspiracy people like me join together to question this practice.

To me, the parents should have the right to decide.


Get your kiddos the hepatitis B vaccine. There's alot of dirty bastards out their.
I know several people who got hepatitis from taco John's 10+ years ago. Seriously.
 
There is no debate. Vaccines are safe. They are effective. They save lives. To deny this requires a few things. First, it requires rejection of a mountain of science. Not a study or two, but a large amount of medical research. If a mass amount of evidence doesn't convince @PhitePhan , what will? Why even waste our time talking to you here about it? If you are willing to bury your head in the sand and reject all the data, which data could we show you to change your mind? Second, if these vaccines are bullshit like you say, one of two things must be true about the scientists and doctors who promote vaccines. Either we are all grossly incompetent and have all come to the wrong conclusions on a matter so simple that a laymen on an MMA with no relevant education was able to outsmart us, or we are all evil and are participating in some nefarious plot against you.

PhitePhan seems to accept the incredibly obvious the fact that the Polio vaccine is effective world wide, but apparently thinks that the world doesn't include the US. Then claims that his logic is superior, resorting to name calling. This is usually typical of all CTer types once you bring up facts that threaten their distorted view of the world.

Just like all anti-vaxxers, the major burying his head in the sand happens when the simple concept of herd immunity is brought up... which wouldn't be present if everyone had the same selfish mentality as anti-vaxxers. No comment from any of the anti-vaxers ITT about it.


330px-Community_Immunity.jpg
 
Get your kiddos the hepatitis B vaccine. There's alot of dirty bastards out their.
I know several people who got hepatitis from taco John's 10+ years ago. Seriously.
You probably mean hepatitis A. Hepatitis B is the STD or bloodborn disease.
 
Get your kiddos the hepatitis B vaccine. There's alot of dirty bastards out their.
I know several people who got hepatitis from taco John's 10+ years ago. Seriously.

Probably got it from this bastard.

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It's alarming for science, education, lives of Americans, and future of our planet that Trump has such a disregard for science.
 
There is no debate. Vaccines are safe. They are effective. They save lives.

You: "Vaccines are safe."

Reality: "The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and post-marketing, are largely inadequate."

http://www.cochrane.org/CD004407/AR...on-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella

You: "Vaccines are effective."
Reality: Polio diagnosis was changed in a manner which guaranteed significant reduction in the number of cases at the same time public vaccination efforts began.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1961/03/05/page/62/article/the-truth-about-the-polio-vaccines

You: "There is no debate."
Reality: The US vaccination program is so flawed that it cannot tolerate open scrutiny.

The rest of your post consists of straw man arguments (I have not rejected anything, nor does there need to be some grand conspiracy), rehashing of tired propaganda ("safe, effective, debate is over"), and attempts to paint me as irrational/unscientific. So far, all the responses I have given to Meathead apply to you as well...

I understand this is a nuanced issue, do you?

Efforts such as yours and Meathead's are doing more harm than good. People are tired of being told "nothing to see here," when even a cursory review tells them otherwise.Google "VAERS under-reporting," "SV40," "Cutter Incident," "Simpsonwood Conference transcript," "Dr. William Thompson Phd," for just a few issues that raise concerns around the US vaccine program (past and present).

As I have been the only one posting facts and actual scientific research, feel free to respond to any of what I have posted if you'd like to further this discussion.
 
feel free to respond to any of what I have posted if you'd like to further this discussion.

It's pointless to even bother trying. You are not a person who will listen to reason. If you were, you wouldn't be a conspiracy theorist to begin with. Rational, logical people don't buy into ridiculous stories involving elaborate, nefarious plots by evil corporations that sound like they could be straight from a Hollywood superhero movie. Typically, a rational and logical person would hear something like that, think about it a couple minutes, then quickly realize how crazy it would be to believe it could even possibly be true. CTers, like you, want to believe it's true and will latch on to anything without hesitation that confirms their delusions. And no matter what evidence you show them, you can almost never convince a CTer that their beliefs are not true. So while it is very tempting to engage you, it would most certainly be a waste of my time trying to use evidence to reason with someone who doesn't accept evidence and reason.
 
It's pointless to even bother trying. You are not a person who will listen to reason. If you were, you wouldn't be a conspiracy theorist to begin with. Rational, logical people don't buy into ridiculous stories involving elaborate, nefarious plots by evil corporations that sound like they could be straight from a Hollywood superhero movie. Typically, a rational and logical person would hear something like that, think about it a couple minutes, then quickly realize how crazy it would be to believe it could even possibly be true. CTers, like you, want to believe it's true and will latch on to anything without hesitation that confirms their delusions. And no matter what evidence you show them, you can almost never convince a CTer that their beliefs are not true. So while it is very tempting to engage you, it would most certainly be a waste of my time trying to use evidence to reason with someone who doesn't accept evidence and reason.

What in the world are you talking about? Can you give me even ONE example of a CT I have put forth? You are literally making up your own arguments and then arguing against yourself! Sheesh. Your contribution to this thread has been to tacitly support Meathead's utter lack of rational thinking while refusing to respond to any one of multiple FACTUAL issues I have put forth proving that the debate is NOT over.

To top it off, you are adopting the ridiculous position that to raise questions about vaccination is to be certifiably insane, do you even hear yourself? Holy shit man...

Interestingly, you and Meathead have elegantly laid out the most of the "pro vax" argument, bravo! Anyone who reads these posts is free to see how utterly lacking this argument is.

As I said before, this tactic may have been useful in the past but it is getting old, and people are less and less persuaded by this approach. If you truly care about the vaccination program, your side is going to have to get much better at addressing many real issues.
 
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