Pope Francis makes me want to go back to Catholicism.

[Rod1]

Please show me where I accused him of heresy. I only said he favors things that are at best scandalous at worst heretical. He speaks with such ambiguity it's hard to tell quite frankly.

What ambiguity? his message seems pretty clear, i think the ones that are trying to discredit him by poorly translating his message are the ones that should really look into their actions.

 

[Teppodama]

Pope Francis makes me want to go back to Catholicism

Come back for the rhetoric, stay for the heavy petting.

 

[Lex Bigelow]

He's for cultural enrichment.

 

[jax7]

What ambiguity? his message seems pretty clear, i think the ones that are trying to discredit him by poorly translating his message are the ones that should really look into their actions.

What message is that? From the way you respond it seems you are only interested in one aspect of his "message" the economic part. Because when one looks at the entirety of his "message" it's full of confusion.
We could discuss this further but I'm not sure you even know what dogmatic positions the church holds, and how Pope Francis has tried to muddy the waters of Holy Mother Churches teachings.
I also find it odd that you would leave the Church then return upon the cult of personality of one man that validates a political/economic ideology you hold to. Instead of returning because it holds the truth and complete deposit of faith.

 

[badascan]

http://www.catholicnews.com/service...vvy-church-that-overlooks-truth-pope-says.cfm

I wonder how many priests and clergy still believe in Christ.

The Priest in my home town is in jail for raping a young priest/deacon that was staying at the priests house... he apparently had a history of such crime in his home country somewhere in Africa...

*Edit: #notmypriest #hailsatan

 

[Rod1]

What message is that? From the way you respond it seems you are only interested in one aspect of his "message" the economic part. Because when one looks at the entirety of his "message" it's full of confusion.

We could discuss this further but I'm not sure you even know what dogmatic positions the church holds, and how Pope Francis has tried to muddy the waters of Holy Mother Churches teachings.

I also find it odd that you would leave the Church then return upon the cult of personality of one man that validates a political/economic ideology you hold to. Instead of returning because it holds the truth and complete deposit of faith.

- What economic part is there to his message? My guess is that you arent even listening to his speeches and just eat whatever regurgitated shit you hear about him.

- Discuss what further? what dogmatic position do you think Francis is attacking? and how is that position grounded on scripture as opposed to theology?

- What political/economic ideology is that?

 

[jax7]

- What economic part is there to his message? My guess is that you arent even listening to his speeches and just eat whatever regurgitated shit you hear about him.

- Discuss what further? what dogmatic position do you think Francis is attacking? and how is that position grounded on scripture as opposed to theology?

- What political/economic ideology is that?

Oh I'm listening. My guess is you aren't, or just have an ill formed understanding of Catholic theology. Which leads to my next point.
I already can see where you stand by the statement, That somehow there is a dichotomy between scripture and theology. Your outed. Which is why you don't even see his ambiguities concerning Dogmas of the church.
I can provide a list but why? You wouldn't hold to them anyway. You obviously hold the erroneous position that somehow your personal interpretation of scripture overides that of the Church.
Ultimately he is the Holy Father and I think some of his teachings are great and would probably agree with you on them. However the Sacred traditions, and Dogmas of the Church are being trampled on and he "appears to turn a blind eye", and in some cases encourage.

 

[jax7]

You are accusing the Pope of heresy, when the Pope can dismiss dogma as he pleases.

Still those are strong accusations coming from a catholic.

How did I miss this gem. You actually believe it's catholic dogma that a Pope can dismiss dogma as he pleases? You need to get back to a catechism class or at the very least go buy one. It's free online even.

 

[Rod1]

How did I miss this gem. You actually believe it's catholic dogma that a Pope can dismiss dogma as he pleases? You need to get back to a catechism class or at the very least go buy one. It's free online even.

Who do you think gives authorities to dogmas? how do you think dogmas are made in the first place? Do you think catholic dogmas were dictated by Jesus?

 

[Rod1]

Oh I'm listening. My guess is you aren't, or just have an ill formed understanding of Catholic theology. Which leads to my next point.
I already can see where you stand by the statement, That somehow there is a dichotomy between scripture and theology. Your outed. Which is why you don't even see his ambiguities concerning Dogmas of the church.
I can provide a list but why? You wouldn't hold to them anyway. You obviously hold the erroneous position that somehow your personal interpretation of scripture overides that of the Church.
Ultimately he is the Holy Father and I think some of his teachings are great and would probably agree with you on them. However the Sacred traditions, and Dogmas of the Church are being trampled on and he "appears to turn a blind eye", and in some cases encourage.

I asked you specific questions and you answer me with ambiguities.

 

[brothir]

I asked you specific questions and you answer me with ambiguities.

See how annoying it is?

 

[Rod1]

See how annoying it is?

Because your questions were unrelated to my statements.

I never said the Pope did X, and then balk when asked what X was.

 

[brothir]

Because your questions were unrelated to my statements.

I never said the Pope did X, and then balk when asked what X was.

I meant that as a joke, and not to bring this up again. I disagree, but I consider the matter settled so I'm not going to force the rematch.

 

[ultramanhyata]

And that makes you want to become a catholic again? I've never thought of someone saying "yeah, we fucked up" as being a compelling reason to willingly submit to that person as my religious leader. Seems like you've got a bad case of low standards.

Yeah. It's certainly a lot easier to follow the teachers within a zeitgeist that says, "We can't fuck up. Because there is no right and wrong. Everything's relative."

The next best thing to having an infallible teacher is having a teacher who can admit when they are wrong. And who will embrace the full consequences of their errors.

 

[brothir]

Yeah. It's certainly a lot easier to follow the teachers within a zeitgeist that says, "We can't fuck up. Because there is no right and wrong. Everything's relative."

The next best thing to having an infallible teacher is having a teacher who can admit when they are wrong. And who will embrace the full consequences of their errors.

My example to expose what I consider to be the underlying hypocrisy regarding attitudes surrounding this would be if, say, North Korea started saying "Yeah, we're totally an authoritarian police state. How silly of us. Forgive us, though.".

Doesn't quite cut it. Granted, from the link Rod1 posted later it seems that Francis is actually deadly serious about clearing out the problems, but that wasn't in his OP and he didn't seem to be aware from it beforehand, so I don't think that his argument was well founded as he made it: accidentally it may have been, but that's not to his credit.

As such, my criticism remains intact and I will retract nothing.

 

[Karp]

 

[jax7]

I asked you specific questions and you answer me with ambiguities.

Out of charity and hopefully a fraternal bond thru Christ, I want to go back and look at our conversation. You initially attacked St.JPII about the pedophile scandels, when I pointed out the Pope's support of liberation theology which had been suppressed by St. JPII, and Ben XVI. I also stated that he held some near heretical positions based upon his ambiguity. I also provided facts about Pope Francis and his hiding of pedophiles and the removal of the protections Ben XVI put in place. From there I began to ask questions which YOU never answered

I don't think that means what you think it does. Please give one example of a infallible dogmatic statement made by Pope Francis. Perhaps you should look up the criteria for it to be an infallible dogmatic pronouncement.

I received no answer

Please show me where I accused him of heresy. I only said he favors things that are at best scandalous at worst heretical. He speaks with such ambiguity it's hard to tell quite frankly.

I received no answer

Who do you think gives authorities to dogmas? how do you think dogmas are made in the first place? Do you think catholic dogmas were dictated by Jesus?

Just because the Holy Father gives authority to Dogmas and pronounces them infallible does not mean he can change them. This is the crux of the issue. He attacks the Sacred traditions and dogmas of the church. If he is called on it he says that they are being rigid and not following the gospels. As if Sacred tradition or Dogmas can be seperated from the Gospel. All are bound to the Dogmas of the Church. Even the Pope.

And unless he proclaims he is invoking his right as head of the Universal Church and speaking ex cathedra his opinions are just that!

Here is one example where he clearly speaks of economics and goes into a weird theology where we experience "communion" through economic justice not through the Holy Eucharist as has been taught for 2000 years!
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...he_rules_of_the_socio-economic_system/1290369

And here are some more of his strange theological positions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.li...lect-the-troubling-statements-of-pope-francis

So please if you want to return to the Church (which I encourage) do so because it is the way to salvation and the true church of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not because of who currently sits in the chair of St. Peter.

 

[Rod1]

Out of charity and hopefully a fraternal bond thru Christ, I want to go back and look at our conversation. You initially attacked St.JPII about the pedophile scandels, when I pointed out the Pope's support of liberation theology which had been suppressed by St. JPII, and Ben XVI. I also stated that he held some near heretical positions based upon his ambiguity. I also provided facts about Pope Francis and his hiding of pedophiles and the removal of the protections Ben XVI put in place. From there I began to ask questions which YOU never answered

I received no answer

I received no answer


Just because the Holy Father gives authority to Dogmas and pronounces them infallible does not mean he can change them. This is the crux of the issue. He attacks the Sacred traditions and dogmas of the church. If he is called on it he says that they are being rigid and not following the gospels. As if Sacred tradition or Dogmas can be seperated from the Gospel. All are bound to the Dogmas of the Church. Even the Pope.

And unless he proclaims he is invoking his right as head of the Universal Church and speaking ex cathedra his opinions are just that!

Here is one example where he clearly speaks of economics and goes into a weird theology where we experience "communion" through economic justice not through the Holy Eucharist as has been taught for 2000 years!
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...he_rules_of_the_socio-economic_system/1290369

And here are some more of his strange theological positions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.li...lect-the-troubling-statements-of-pope-francis

So please if you want to return to the Church (which I encourage) do so because it is the way to salvation and the true church of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not because of who currently sits in the chair of St. Peter.

The one that makes the claims is the one that needs to back things up.

You are the one that its claiming that he supports liberation theology and you are the one that claims he goes against dogma and holds heretical views. Which views are those again?

Also yes, the fact that dogma stems from the Pope means that the Pope can change what is and what isnt dogma.

Also he isnt saying that money is communion, read it again, he says that we cant have communion while there is still injustice in the world, you cant have communion in sin.

Most of what the Pope does and says reminds me of early christians when the religion itself was less dogmatic and more open to ideas.

 

[jax7]

The one that makes the claims is the one that needs to back things up.

You are the one that its claiming that he supports liberation theology and you are the one that claims he goes against dogma and holds heretical views. Which views are those again?

Also yes, the fact that dogma stems from the Pope means that the Pope can change what is and what isnt dogma.

Also he isnt saying that money is communion, read it again, he says that we cant have communion while there is still injustice in the world, you cant have communion in sin.

Most of what the Pope does and says reminds me of early christians when the religion itself was less dogmatic and more open to ideas.

Okay I can see you are disingenuous. I'm the only one whose backed anything up.

You still won't answer my questions. One of which was asking where I ever called him a heretic. I clearly never said he was a heretic, only that his weird statments and ambiguity lend themselves to a heretical interpretation. I also provided a link to some of these statements so as not to have to type a wall of text.

And he clearly favors liberation theology and Marxist ideas. In 2016, the Jesuits, with Pope Francis, installed as its general superior, Fr. Arturo Sosa Abascal, whose communist convictions have long been known. There are more examples. Just use google.

With all due charity you are clearly not catholic or were never fully catechised in the faith. DOGMA DOES NOT COME FROM THE POPE! Its already there in the deposit of faith. He can only define what is already there. He definitely can't change Dogma. How strange would that be? If something is dogmatic and infallible how can you change it?

As far as your communion statement goes. It just plain wrong. The communion of the church has nothing to do with social or economic injustice or sin(we will always have injustice and sin till Christ returns) It is through Christ, his Church and through the Eucharist we have communion

As long as one is a baptised Catholic in a state of grace, and submits to all teachings of the Church they are in communion with Church, Christ, and the Holy saints in heaven and those on earth. (Communion of saints)Period.

At this point I could pull out Dogmatic statements from the catechism or ecumenical councils, etc. But it wouldn't matter to you because you don't even understand their purpose or that they don't change. You don't even try to argue the strange things he has said using the Catechism or Councils to back it up. Which even his most ardent supporters do.

I use those references to try to justify some of his strange remarks, as he is the head of the Church. On the other hand you just say he follows the early church. Then you don't even provide any references from the Church fathers, Catechism, or Ecumenical councils.

I entered this conversation thinking you had at least an inkling of understang of Catholic theology. I even hoped you could give a good argument as to explain some his stance's I have trouble with, but I see that is not the case. I wish you luck in your return to Church, and encourage you to study the catechism, church fathers, and the councils to deepen your faith.

 

[Rod1]

Okay I can see you are disingenuous. I'm the only one whose backed anything up.

You still won't answer my questions. One of which was asking where I ever called him a heretic. I clearly never said he was a heretic, only that his weird statments and ambiguity lend themselves to a heretical interpretation. I also provided a link to some of these statements so as not to have to type a wall of text.

And he clearly favors liberation theology and Marxist ideas. In 2016, the Jesuits, with Pope Francis, installed as its general superior, Fr. Arturo Sosa Abascal, whose communist convictions have long been known. There are more examples. Just use google.

With all due charity you are clearly not catholic or were never fully catechised in the faith. DOGMA DOES NOT COME FROM THE POPE! Its already there in the deposit of faith. He can only define what is already there. He definitely can't change Dogma. How strange would that be? If something is dogmatic and infallible how can you change it?

As far as your communion statement goes. It just plain wrong. The communion of the church has nothing to do with social or economic injustice or sin(we will always have injustice and sin till Christ returns) It is through Christ, his Church and through the Eucharist we have communion

As long as one is a baptised Catholic in a state of grace, and submits to all teachings of the Church they are in communion with Church, Christ, and the Holy saints in heaven and those on earth. (Communion of saints)Period.

At this point I could pull out Dogmatic statements from the catechism or ecumenical councils, etc. But it wouldn't matter to you because you don't even understand their purpose or that they don't change. You don't even try to argue the strange things he has said using the Catechism or Councils to back it up. Which even his most ardent supporters do.

I use those references to try to justify some of his strange remarks, as he is the head of the Church. On the other hand you just say he follows the early church. Then you don't even provide any references from the Church fathers, Catechism, or Ecumenical councils.

I entered this conversation thinking you had at least an inkling of understang of Catholic theology. I even hoped you could give a good argument as to explain some his stance's I have trouble with, but I see that is not the case. I wish you luck in your return to Church, and encourage you to study the catechism, church fathers, and the councils to deepen your faith.

Again, where is the Pope discarding dogma? and dogma certianly stems from the authority of the Pope, virtually nothing in the catholic church existed in early christianism, not even papal supremacy.