Picture of Norwegian mass murderers “prison cell” in Oslo

[JSN]

Yeah, I think everyone has that kind of perspective (prioritizing rehabilitation less and punishment more for murderers and rapists, etc.). But it's a hard line to draw and is likely more costly than it is worth.

For me, personally, I think rehabilitation is worthwhile for every criminal, with the lone exception perhaps being aggravated rapists. For instance, pedophiles actually seem to respond better to rehabilitation than the average sex criminal. But.....man, if you are a person who can violently rape another person at knife point, etc......I just don't know that you can be reasonably converted into a productive citizen. But that's just me.

I don't favor rehabilitating chomos because I value the potential victims much more than the perp's. really same for people who commit most types of murders and many types of rape.

 

[Trotsky]

I don't favor rehabilitating chomos because I value the potential victims much more than the perp's. really same for people who commit most types of murders and many types of rape.

Chomos? Is that child molesters? Nevertheless, I do to the extent that it conforms to the non-aggravated distinction for all other crimes. There needs to be some graduation of penalties so as not to incentivize worse crimes that are harder to prove.

For murders, I also disagree. The vast majority of murderers can be rehabilitated, with the exception of serial killers, contract killers, sadists, etc. I think this is particularly true for murderers whose crimes have some economic color (drug deals, etc.).

 

[JSN]

Chomos? Is that child molesters? Nevertheless, I do to the extent that it conforms to the non-aggravated distinction for all other crimes. There needs to be some graduation of penalties so as not to incentivize worse crimes that are harder to prove.

For murders, I also disagree. The vast majority of murderers can be rehabilitated, with the exception of serial killers, contract killers, sadists, etc. I think this is particularly true for murderers whose crimes have some economic color (drug deals, etc.).

yeah I don't really care about the possibility of rehabilitating them though.

 

[cleetus]

Because it really curbs recidivism.

You know, because guys like him should be put back on the streets...

Some people just do not deserve second chances.

 

[Bloodworth]

What a deterrent

 

[HereticBD]

Some people just do not deserve second chances.

As a Canadian, I can't talk too much shit. A couple years ago we let a maniac back on the streets with no supervision after a few years in a mental institution.

His crime:

He cut a guy's head off on a bus, and ate his tongue, nose and eyeballs. Yes, that guy is now roaming our streets free as a bird. He could be my neighbor one day.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Norway does almost everything better than the U.S, because they don't have modern day republicans and religious fundamentalists as a major party in their country.

 

[cleetus]

Chomos? Is that child molesters? Nevertheless, I do to the extent that it conforms to the non-aggravated distinction for all other crimes. There needs to be some graduation of penalties so as not to incentivize worse crimes that are harder to prove.

For murders, I also disagree. The vast majority of murderers can be rehabilitated, with the exception of serial killers, contract killers, sadists, etc. I think this is particularly true for murderers whose crimes have some economic color (drug deals, etc.).

Cite your source that a "vast majority" of murderers can be rehabilitated.

 

[grimballer]

There’s a good article about the subject

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12

Maybe if us prisons were more like Norwegian there would be a big problem with crime

 

[jefferz]

Read ze thread, man. A state already is.

North Dakota's Norway Experiment



Minot! There's a lot of LGM-30 (Minuteman III) ICBMs there.

It's a lovely little town though.

The State pen inmates just raised over $7k for cerebral palsy charities.


One of the people in that video is in there for murdering someone with a scythe.

 

[SBJJ]

Jail should be such a horrific experience that nobody would ever want to end up there, and those stupid enough to do time will never go back.


I’m ok with this being for violent crime only.

Prison should be more like the military.

Prisoners should work and learn. Not sit in a cell getting angrier and angrier. And not learning how to be a more violent criminal if they are ever released

 

[Seano]

Meh, I expected more. Its just a chair and curtains. Not really that luxurious.

 

[TheGreatA]

Norway does almost everything better than the U.S, because they don't have modern day republicans and religious fundamentalists as a major party in their country.

Norway is actually ruled by a right-wing coalition consisting of conservatives, economic liberals and Christian democrats, who ran on a campaign promising tax cuts and tougher immigration.

Comparatively, of course, they're not as right-wing as America's right-wingers.

They do everything better than the US because they're a tiny country separated from the problems that the rest of the world has, which has gotten oil rich. 'murica with its 300+ million population has a lot more problems putting food on everyone's table.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Norway is actually ruled by a right-wing coalition consisting of conservatives, economic liberals and Christian democrats, who ran on a campaign promising tax cuts and tougher immigration.

Comparatively, of course, they're not as right-wing as America's right-wingers.

They do everything better than the US because they're a tiny country separated from the problems that the rest of the world has, which has gotten oil rich. 'murica with its 300+ million population has a lot more problems putting food on everyone's table.

Norway has nothing like the religious fundamentalists here in the states and you know it.


I always wonder where the cut off is in regards to population size where things just won’t work like they do elesewhere

 

[TheGreatA]

Norway has nothing like the religious fundamentalists here in the states and you know it.


I always wonder where the cut off is in regards to population size where things just won’t work like they do elesewhere

I would say 5 to 10 million. The size of a big city, like New York, etc.

America can run a New York well. But they can't ever hope to run everything well. You can't really compare America to Norway because it's a massive entity by comparison. Europe too has its "weak points", East Europe and South Europe aren't that well off compared to a Norway or a Sweden. If people focused on those countries, instead of the "shining examples", like they focus on America's ghettos and slums, people would get a very different idea of what's going on in Europe.

 

[tramendous]

Except this is proven, without a doubt to not be effective. This does not decrease recidivism.

The Nordic approach does.

If you don't care about increasing crime and don't care about reducing it, and you only care about punishing people, then your perspective makes sense.

However, if you want to decrease recidivism, decrease crime, make your country safer, and use your tax dollars more efficiently, the Europeans are right and you/we are wrong.

The thing is, I dont think someone like breivik deserves to be rehabilitated. Its one thing if its some gang banger that robbed a store or assaulted someone. Its a whole other when someone is a mass murderer.

 

[Oeshon]

Prison doesn't work because it removes the number 1 skill / mindset that is needed for success, which is self accountability and self responsibility.

 

[Trotsky]

The thing is, I dont think someone like breivik deserves to be rehabilitated. Its one thing if its some gang banger that robbed a store or assaulted someone. Its a whole other when someone is a mass murderer.

Haha, yeah, I wasn't speaking specifically of this case, which I have not researched at all.

But one problem with drawing those factual lines case by case is the administrative cost in not being arbitrary and capricious. Sure, a "differential treatment for convicted mass murderers" rule might well be sensible, but I'm sure there's another side to the story.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I would say 5 to 10 million. The size of a big city, like New York, etc.

America can run a New York well. But they can't ever hope to run everything well. You can't really compare America to Norway because it's a massive entity by comparison. Europe too has its "weak points", East Europe and South Europe aren't that well off compared to a Norway or a Sweden. If people focused on those countries, instead of the "shining examples", like they focus on America's ghettos and slums, people would get a very different idea of what's going on in Europe.

So you just pulled a number out of your ass and went with it.

Is that why a universal HC system wont work here also?

 

[HunterSdVa29]

i don't see any reason why we shouldn't at least switch to a Rehab rather than punishment model

we already spend mad loot anyhow considering our for profit private prisons, pensions for corrections, etc...

so why not actually try to deter criminals, fix them if need be, and not automatically negate a huge swath of people from getting decent work, or voting, kids to not have a dad, etc...

i mean it can't be worse than it is now, right?