Official Women's Division Discussion #25

Absurd. Coenen, Carano, Holm, Evinger, Yana.. you're just another lame hater, sorry.

Coenen and Holm are the only decent fighters on her resume. Carano spent most of her career missing weight or fighting flyweights, Evinger's had her shit beat in by every fighter who's ever been in the UFC (Ladd, McMann, Davis), and Yana is at about the same level as Evinger.
 
Coenen and Holm are the only decent fighters on her resume. Carano spent most of her career missing weight or fighting flyweights, Evinger's had her shit beat in by every fighter who's ever been in the UFC (Ladd, McMann, Davis), and Yana is at about the same level as Evinger.
First of all that's wrong, since she beat Aldana.
Second, and most important, Sara and Davis are 2 former title challengers, no shame losing to them.
If Evinger doesn't count because she sucks or whatever, SHEEIT, then 90% of WMMA fighters suck and don't count in anyone's resume.

Like i previously said, you're shitting at WMMA by doing so. The funny part is that you 3 dorks don't even realize this, because the illogical emotionally-driven hate towards her is blinding you guys. Stupid as fuck.
 
Liz Carmouche: I’m the one who deserved the Valentina Shevchenko fight
Well, Liz, maybe you should have spoken out publicly before now.

Ya think? Liz had the best claim for a title shot against Valentina, she's ranked well in the division and she has a win over Val that they can market and use to build interest in the fight. I'm pretty sure she could've gotten the fight if she spoke up a month & half ago and campaigned for it. I get that she's low profile and pretty much disappears between fights, but she's got to realize that the UFC rewards fighters who take the initiative, she can't just sit there and expect a title shot to get handed to her. Much like MMA judging I don't agree with how UFC matchmaking & promotions work, but like it or not, you need to know how it works and use it to your advantage.

If I were Carmouche, I would've been pushing hard for a title fight against Val as soon as the Maia fight was won. And I would've kept myself ready for when Nicco dropped out. But the entire flyweight division just sat around twiddling their thumbs while JJ swooped in to grab the title shot.
 
LOL in what fucking world do you live where 5'11 legit featherweights are small, god lord these haters are delusional

I am breaking a long-standing rule of replying to someone I have on ignore. I clicked "show ignored content" and saw your posts. I have a few minutes while my wife is finishing something up. It will be a waste of my time, but, well, these things happen.

I am quoting your post, with the exception of the picture, in its entirety. This is called "not taking remarks out of context."

I did not use the words "small women." I said "small and unskilled women" as a general statement given that most of her resume features women smaller than her. And women with poor records. The bulk of the data supports this. There are exceptions, but one can generally when speaking to the vast majority of individuals who are represented within the peak of the bell curve. This is not complex.

You deliberately misquoted me. You had to selectively edit my post to get the quote to read the way you wanted. This is not just a straw man argument (another logically fallacious position) but an intellectually dishonest method of taking a remark out of context and deliberately presented a false statement.

I never said featherweights were small. This is another straw-man argument (a type of logical fallacy where one re-words someone's statement to make it easier for them to argue against) which is, again, logically fallacious. And quite simply wrong.

I will re-state: I never said featherweights were small. I said most of her opponents were. All but six have fought in lighter weight classes. Six have fought two weight classes down. Acknowledging this would, of course, be self-defeating for you as numbers do not lie. Only six out of twenty-two opponents have not fought in smaller weight classes. Therefore, most of her competition has been smaller than her.

You ignored comments about documented cheating, her opponents record and every other thing you could not dispute. Again, see: taking remarks in context.

You then engage in an ad hominem attack. This too is logically fallacious. Name calling is both childish and a sign that data is lacking when you are trying to support a position.

You make another post in which you do the same thing.

You make a third post where you quote no one, so it is unclear who you are replying to. Since you feel free to cherry-pick (taking remarks out of context) you should avoid making general statements, lest others do the same thing to you.

I will keep you off of ignore so that when I get back I can see your reply. It is only fair.

Also, my hatred is a very powerful thing. No MMA fighter has ever done anything to deserve it. I spent too many years in the service to hate someone for something like cheating at a sport. Here you assume I hate someone because I drew conclusions based on actual data. This is wrong. I simply drew conclusions based on data.

Your false accusation is nothing more than projection at most, or, at best, a false assumption based on facts not in evidence.

Assuming you respond, I will read it some time this evening.

While I am at it:

A little bit about the bell curve, and why it is important.
https://www.thoughtco.com/bell-curve-normal-distribution-defined-2312350
 
Ya think? Liz had the best claim for a title shot against Valentina, she's ranked well in the division and she has a win over Val that they can market and use to build interest in the fight. I'm pretty sure she could've gotten the fight if she spoke up a month & half ago and campaigned for it. I get that she's low profile and pretty much disappears between fights, but she's got to realize that the UFC rewards fighters who take the initiative, she can't just sit there and expect a title shot to get handed to her. Much like MMA judging I don't agree with how UFC matchmaking & promotions work, but like it or not, you need to know how it works and use it to your advantage.

If I were Carmouche, I would've been pushing hard for a title fight against Val as soon as the Maia fight was won. And I would've kept myself ready for when Nicco dropped out. But the entire flyweight division just sat around twiddling their thumbs while JJ swooped in to grab the title shot.
True. The only fighter who spoke up at all was Chookagian, right when Nicco dropped out.
 
trying to discredit fighters like Yana, Evinger, Smith, Porto, Lansberg, Tweet etc discredits WMMA as a whole, it's always fun to see people shitting indirectly at the part of the sport they claim to love and respect just to hate at Cyborg

Holly Holm - She looks the part of a good fighter but ever since the Ronda fight she has severely under performed. Remember the size difference between her and Valentina? How did Holly lose that fight? I will still count this as a great win for Cyborg.

Yana - Looked great in Invicta. She is unproven but has not looked as good at 135 in the UFC.

Lina Lansberg - Is a low tier 135er. It might sound harsh but it is the truth.

Porto - Is a 125er. Do you really want to use her to bolster Cyborgs resume?

Leslie Smith - Is a tough but mediocre fighter at 135. She is very exciting but was 4 - 2 at 135 in the UFC With the best name she beat being Aldana. Her wins being against Amanda Lemos(who?), Rin Nakai(125er), Jessamyn Duke(Terrible fighter) and Aldana who herself is unproven.

Evinger - She is a good name that was on a tear. She is a 135er but I will give you her. The only problem with Evinger is that Aspen just destroyed her to.

My opinions on Cyborg being the WMMA GOAT is that I personally can't say she is. Once you fail a test for me you are out of the conversation. For this reason GSP is my MMA GOAT even though I was never really a fan of him. Anderson and Jon disqualified themselves. If you were to throw out the drug tests I still would not have her as GOAT due to difficulty of her opponents. If Claudia or Andrade were actual 145ers they would blow away any fighter on Cyborgs resume. This is just my opinion and I am sure a lot will not agree. I just wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion.
 
But the entire flyweight division just sat around twiddling their thumbs while JJ swooped in to grab the title shot.

Good. She's the most active and professional out of all of then. She won another fight, and may be Flyweight champ.... while the 115 champ is nowhere to be seen.

Is Rose hurt or something? I give her credit for the rematch, but she should be fighting soon if she's not hurt.
 
It will be a waste of my time, but, well, these things happen.
You have been wasting your time hating at Cyborg for many years, i see you shitposting about her in this thread and in the heavies quite often. Let's not act like your time is that precious old man.
I did not use the words "small women." I said "small and unskilled women" as a general statement given that most of her resume features women smaller than her. And women with poor records. The bulk of the data supports this. There are exceptions, but one can generally when speaking to the vast majority of individuals who are represented within the peak of the bell curve. This is not complex.

You deliberately misquoted me. You had to selectively edit my post to get the quote to read the way you wanted. This is not just a straw man argument (another logically fallacious position) but an intellectually dishonest method of taking a remark out of context and deliberately presented a false statement.
No, i didn't misquoted you, i just picked the most ridiculous part of your post and decided to highlight it separating from the rest.
That was the focus of my response so i only quoted it, and it's not like you didn't said it.
As you said, there was a "and unskilled" missing, but don't act like i changed drastically what you said.

The point is, by the way you choose to put it (you frequently does that tbh), it's like she never faced any legit featherweights, and it suggests she ONLY wins because of a size advantage. That's far from the truth.
She doesn't fight only "small and unskilled women", she fights, and has always fought, whoever stepped up to fight her.
Also, by counting her first 5 fights in your data, you're being dishonest. When Cyborg started she wasn't nearly as muscular, she was in her early 20's and was very lean, having been training just for a few years. These early ones in Brazil were openweight fights, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Then out of her next 16 opponents (Coenen x2), now fighting in US, she faced some that have never fought at 135 or under (Takahashi, Yamanaka, Carano, Tweet, Muxlow) and some fighters that were mostly career-featherweights, fighters that already had experience and success in that division (Coenen, Van Duin, Ibragimova). So out of 16, we can say that 8 were mostly bantamweights (Holly, Evinger, L.Smith, Lansberg, Finney, Baszler, Yana and Akano). That's not the majority.
I never said featherweights were small. This is another straw-man argument (a type of logical fallacy where one re-words someone's statement to make it easier for them to argue against) which is, again, logically fallacious. And quite simply wrong.
And i never suggested that you said it.
I clearly demonstrated why you were so wrong: she fought a 5'11 featherweight, who by no means, doesn't matter where you from, could be labelled as "small", it's just wrong to say so, even speaking generically. The same applies to Tweet, Carano, Holly, Coenen etc, they aren't small athletes, for WMMA standards. Not even close.
I will re-state: I never said featherweights were small. I said most of her opponents were.
And you're wrong.
Therefore, most of her competition has been smaller than her.
"Smaller than her" and "small" are 2 complete different things. Most of Ronda's competition were smaller than her. Davis and Carmouche are now fighting at 125. Could you say most of them were "small"? No. That's non sense.
You then engage in an ad hominem attack. This too is logically fallacious. Name calling is both childish and a sign that data is lacking when you are trying to support a position.
You don't respect the sport, WMMA as a whole or Cyborg, why should i respect you? You already should've been punished due to fighter bashing.
Also, my hatred is a very powerful thing.
Lol, sure old man.
giphy.gif
 
<snip drivel>

So, just more insults, no grasp of logic, false allegations and outright lies, as well of denial of reality: Hint: if math says you are wrong, you are wrong.

Example: I never said she has never faced any legit featherweights. I said she only fought six, three of whom have zero wins. You are stating that I said otherwise. This is lying.

Given that you cannot even be honest on a message board, I have no idea what you will do in life. I am just glad that I will not be witnessing it.

Have fun remaining on ignore with the rest of the trolls.
 
Full card for Invicta finally released. Isis Verbeek will be facing Kathryn Paprocki, winner of the recent SCL Strawweight Queen of Sparta Tournament:

 
Holly Holm - She looks the part of a good fighter but ever since the Ronda fight she has severely under performed. Remember the size difference between her and Valentina? How did Holly lose that fight? I will still count this as a great win for Cyborg.

Yana - Looked great in Invicta. She is unproven but has not looked as good at 135 in the UFC.

Lina Lansberg - Is a low tier 135er. It might sound harsh but it is the truth.

Porto - Is a 125er. Do you really want to use her to bolster Cyborgs resume?

Leslie Smith - Is a tough but mediocre fighter at 135. She is very exciting but was 4 - 2 at 135 in the UFC With the best name she beat being Aldana. Her wins being against Amanda Lemos(who?), Rin Nakai(125er), Jessamyn Duke(Terrible fighter) and Aldana who herself is unproven.

Evinger - She is a good name that was on a tear. She is a 135er but I will give you her. The only problem with Evinger is that Aspen just destroyed her to.

My opinions on Cyborg being the WMMA GOAT is that I personally can't say she is. Once you fail a test for me you are out of the conversation. For this reason GSP is my MMA GOAT even though I was never really a fan of him. Anderson and Jon disqualified themselves. If you were to throw out the drug tests I still would not have her as GOAT due to difficulty of her opponents. If Claudia or Andrade were actual 145ers they would blow away any fighter on Cyborgs resume. This is just my opinion and I am sure a lot will not agree. I just wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion.
I respect your opinion and your read on her resume. You're obviously analyzing it with no bias, different from the others.
I would disagree with a few things like Aldana still being unproven, but nothing really important.

I could understand someone saying that Cyborg could never be seen as the greatest because of her PED's shenanigans in the past, but to discredit her entire (almost) resume? That's absurd. That's disrespecting WMMA itself.

You can't just put a tough and accomplished vet like Evinger, who i do not like, in the same boat as, let's say, Finney. A win over Evinger counts, and means A LOT. Or what are we doing here? Watching many fights in UFC and scouting talent for nothing? Because there aren't many fighters out there at 135 and over who have been more successful than her (Evinger). It HAS TO count for something.

I also can't condone hating at her, to this day, because of things that happened a decade ago like the scale thing. Move on, for fucks sake.
She is a wonderful woman who does great things for society, both in US and in Brazil. Are you really such a cunt that you will let 2 mistakes overshadow this? Wow. That speaks more about you than about her, for sure (not talking specifically about you, lol).
 
Last edited:
I said she only fought six, three of whom have zero wins.
Yamanaka, Carano, Tweet, Muxlow - which one of them have zero wins? You're twisting facts here, evidently.

Gonna ignore me because you can't handle truth? Is tough to be called out on your bullshit? Whatever, really don't care.
I don't think i'm losing anything by having a negative moron like you not wanting to engage with me.
I'm here to discuss about WMMA with other fans who love that part of sport, and i don't think that's the case with you, to begin with.
 
Full card for Invicta finally released. Isis Verbeek will be facing Kathryn Paprocki, winner of the recent SCL Strawweight Queen of Sparta Tournament:



Nobody better pull out.... this card is fucking awesome.

I'll bet on Mitzi Merry just because of her name.

Also....Picks.

Spencer
MIZUKI
Smashley
Kaitlin
Alexa Conners
Blanchfield/Hansen.... This one is tough.... I can't choose. Flipping a coin. Heads. Blanchfield by submission.
Geltmacher
War Isis.
Mitzi Merry Christmas.
 
You can't just put a tough and accomplished vet like Evinger, who i do not like, in the same boat as, let's say, Finney. A win over Evinger counts, and means A LOT. Or what are we doing here? Watching many fights in UFC and scouting talent for nothing? Because there aren't many fighters out there at 135 and over who have been more successful than her (Evinger). It HAS TO count for something.

Does Evinger have a single top 5 win? No. How about a top 10? Questionable at best. Not many fighters who've been more successful? Lol. She's a career journeyman who doesn't even qualify as a gatekeeper.
 
Holly Holm - She looks the part of a good fighter but ever since the Ronda fight she has severely under performed. Remember the size difference between her and Valentina? How did Holly lose that fight? I will still count this as a great win for Cyborg.

A good win, yes.

Yana - Looked great in Invicta. She is unproven but has not looked as good at 135 in the UFC.

Has not looked good at all in the UFC. She is an average BW. She needs a new camp. Her striking fundamentals need work.

Lina Lansberg - Is a low tier 135er. It might sound harsh but it is the truth.

Porto - Is a 125er. Do you really want to use her to bolster Cyborgs resume?

Leslie Smith - Is a tough but mediocre fighter at 135. She is very exciting but was 4 - 2 at 135 in the UFC With the best name she beat being Aldana. Her wins being against Amanda Lemos(who?), Rin Nakai(125er), Jessamyn Duke(Terrible fighter) and Aldana who herself is unproven.

Smith has fought at 125. So she is tremendously smaller than Cyborg.

Evinger - She is a good name that was on a tear. She is a 135er but I will give you her. The only problem with Evinger is that Aspen just destroyed her to.

Look at Evinger's wins. None really stand out. She is fringe top ten at best on a good day. And by her own admission she could make 125 if she paid more attention to her diet. A good win is not someone who has as few top wins as Evinger and carries 40 lbs. less muscle.

My opinions on Cyborg being the WMMA GOAT is that I personally can't say she is. Once you fail a test for me you are out of the conversation. For this reason GSP is my MMA GOAT even though I was never really a fan of him. Anderson and Jon disqualified themselves. If you were to throw out the drug tests I still would not have her as GOAT due to difficulty of her opponents. If Claudia or Andrade were actual 145ers they would blow away any fighter on Cyborgs resume. This is just my opinion and I am sure a lot will not agree. I just wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion.

There is that. I mean, she has been caught cheating three times. Who knows how many other times this has occurred.

Also:

Her first fight against Erica Paes she came in overweight. Erica posted about this on twitter. She came in over for her second. Andre Pederneiras was the ref and he has commented on this. She came in heavy in Brazil for her catchweight fight and this was ignored by the commission. She came in heavy for the Akano fight (wet bikini). In each case she was fighting a smaller woman.

So she has also come in heavy four times that I can track to fight smaller women.

Carano has fought lighter than 145, and had all of seven fights, over half of which were against smaller women. I can keep going.

And if someone can make a lighter weight class than Cyborg can, they are smaller than her. End of story. And this is all but six of her opponents. And I have no problem saying the three who had wins at 145 were not all that impressive when you consider how weak the 145 lbs. division is. At the last time I did the math, the top 10 at 145 had a lower winning percentage fighting women who moved up from 135 than when fighting women in their own weight class.

So all of Cyborg's "best" wins are against women smaller than her. And she cheated. Multiple times. And failed to make weight. Multiple times. This is just math.

Best in this case is used to mean most skilled with the best record.

While I am at it, Cyborg gave her weight during an interview at 70 kilos. She then gave her weight during the Tito press conference at 160 and said "she would die" trying to make 135. She then blew up to 175. She then cut to 139 for a catch weight fight. This is not only more raw weight but a greater percentage of bodyweight. (again, math). So she continued to push for a greater and greater size and strength advantage. In her eight fights since the conference, she has only fought one woman who has not fought lighter than 145, one who has fought at 125 and one who says she could make 125 (which visual inspection suggests to be true).

So there is also that when considering her status. If Stipe were still HW champ, and his resume was filled with LHW and MW fighters, he would get no end of shit. And had he failed two drug tests and tried to tamper with a scale, the shit he would get would be unending.

Yet Cyborg gets a pass?

No. For a sport to have meaning, it must have standards and honor.
 
Does Evinger have a single top 5 win? No. How about a top 10? Questionable at best. Not many fighters who've been more successful? Lol. She's a career journeyman who doesn't even qualify as a gatekeeper.
Not questionable. She does.
3d549e051c8689a335004c7efc34163e.png

Yana is currently at #10. She also beat Aldana who is #12, and i still like her chances against some of these fighters like McMann (who crumbles easily) and Reneau.

Solid gatekeeper, tough test to prospects, as it showed against Aldana and Pannie.

Like i said, there hasn't been many at 135+ more successful than Evinger. Solid skillset and her win streak prior to the Cyborg fight, which mixes vets and hot prospects, is impressive.
 
Does Evinger have a single top 5 win? No. How about a top 10? Questionable at best. Not many fighters who've been more successful? Lol. She's a career journeyman who doesn't even qualify as a gatekeeper.

Now you are just hating.

:)

She got choked out by Carano, of all people.
 
Nobody better pull out.... this card is fucking awesome.

I'll bet on Mitzi Merry just because of her name.

Also....Picks.

Spencer
MIZUKI
Smashley
Kaitlin
Alexa Conners
Blanchfield/Hansen.... This one is tough.... I can't choose. Flipping a coin. Heads. Blanchfield by submission.
Geltmacher
War Isis.
Mitzi Merry Christmas.

I wanted to disagree with all your picks so we could debate them, but I agree with almost every one. I will be the Grinch and hope your Christmas gets ruined, I supposed.

:)

Happy to see Young back in the cage.



Did you see Frausto's last fight? A couple of serious leg kicks.
 
Does Evinger have a single top 5 win? No. How about a top 10? Questionable at best. Not many fighters who've been more successful? Lol. She's a career journeyman who doesn't even qualify as a gatekeeper.
Oh man, after looking at Tonya's fight history I gotta admit it is a lot worse than I thought. Her 3 best wins at 135 are Yana, Dandois and Aldana. That is not very good. She also has losses to Sara McMann, Alexis Davis(Twice) and the 125er Porto. You raised a great point about Evinger.
 
While I am at it, considering Cyborg's best wins:

Holm: Out struck and out-grappled by someone who now fights at 125.

Marloes Coenen (whom I truly like) does not have much in the way of wrestling and was subbed by Tate. Just like Holm.

All of Cyborg's best wins have multiple losses at 135, so they do not get better when fighting at a size and strength disadvantage. And on the size subject - yes, again - a woman really has to work to gain 20 lbs. of muscle while competing in a cardio-intensive sport. So Cyborg's "problems" are all of her own creation, unless she is being force-fed.
 
Back
Top