Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Throw everyone for ippon and they will be happy to hand you your next dan.

Thats pretty much it.
Simple and straight forward.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

My goal is to destroy Onq's liver. My favorite hangover remedy is randori.

http://gph.is/1PQR8Fr

 

[A Muse of Fire]

I'm confused as to why a Black Belt is more prestigious in USA than Japan. From Japanese standards it seems like id be much higher ranked than I am in USA

Also I wish some one had told me the learning curve for judo was really high. I would have been less frustrated as a white belt.

I'm one of the higher ranks at the gym and struggle with techniques ive been practicing for years on lower belts

This forum has mad me more comfortable with my lack of ability.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I'm confused as to why a Black Belt is more prestigious in USA than Japan. From Japanese standards it seems like id be much higher ranked than I am in USA

Also I wish some one had told me the learning curve for judo was really high. I would have been less frustrated as a white belt.

I'm one of the higher ranks at the gym and struggle with techniques ive been practicing for years on lower belts

This forum has mad me more comfortable with my lack of ability.

Have you asked your self what is the difference between combat sports without belt and color rankings (aka wrestling, boxing, sambo...) and the ones with?
Look at the demographics of both types and its quite obvious
Non grades sports in general have far less participants, than lets say TKD, Aikido and so other sports (khm)...

 

[Uchi Mata]

Have you asked your self what is the difference between combat sports without belt and color rankings (aka wrestling, boxing, sambo...) and the ones with?
Look at the demographics of both types and its quite obvious
Non grades sports in general have far less participants, than lets say TKD, Aikido and so other sports (khm)...

I don't know that it matters much. Judo and TKD weren't originally just sports, they were martial arts in the more holistic Eastern tradition (especially Judo, TKD is just transplanted Karate Korean propoganda aside). From a competitive standpoint, all the good competitors in both disciplines are black belts, and no one cares about rank among competitors, they care about achievements. You know what I mean, it's not like you go to an international Judo tournament and people are talking about who is a 3rd dan vs. a 4th dan. It doesn't matter, except to people who don't compete. The only difference is that Judo and TKD (and BJJ) have large pools of non-competitors, whereas a sport like wrestling really isn't set up for recreational training. At least not in the US.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I don't know that it matters much. Judo and TKD weren't originally just sports, they were martial arts in the more holistic Eastern tradition (especially Judo, TKD is just transplanted Karate Korean propoganda aside). From a competitive standpoint, all the good competitors in both disciplines are black belts, and no one cares about rank among competitors, they care about achievements. You know what I mean, it's not like you go to an international Judo tournament and people are talking about who is a 3rd dan vs. a 4th dan. It doesn't matter, except to people who don't compete. The only difference is that Judo and TKD (and BJJ) have large pools of non-competitors, whereas a sport like wrestling really isn't set up for recreational training. At least not in the US.

Yes, but I think in general color belts are western system.
First thing that comes to mind when you look at the 2 groups, is the class difference- majority of non grade sports are practiced by blue color crowd, while the such with belt degrees are practiced by middle class and up.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yes, but I think in general color belts are western system.
First thing that comes to mind when you look at the 2 groups, is the class difference- majority of non grade sports are practiced by blue color crowd, while the such with belt degrees are practiced by middle class and up.

That's not really true in the US. Blue collar and white collar people wrestle, in fact the very fancy prep schools and universities of New England produce a lot of great talent. And I grew up with a ton of blue collar guys who were into martial arts like Judo and BJJ. I will say that mostly blue collar guys get into MMA and boxing as pros, at least that I know. Martial arts have always been pretty popular across classes in the US.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

That's not really true in the US. Blue collar and white collar people wrestle, in fact the very fancy prep schools and universities of New England produce a lot of great talent. And I grew up with a ton of blue collar guys who were into martial arts like Judo and BJJ. I will say that mostly blue collar guys get into MMA and boxing as pros, at least that I know. Martial arts have always been pretty popular across classes in the US.

Maybe good wrestlers get recruited in the unis through scholarships.
Im not really familiar with the US situation, but in Europe and South America, the majority of the wrestlers/ boxers are coming from blue color families.
Then, I have yet to see a blue color Aikido, TKD practitioner.
Judo and Karate (especially Kyokushin) are a bit different, because in general they are full contact sports on par with wrestling and boxing, so thats where the exceptions are.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Maybe good wrestlers get recruited in the unis through scholarships.
Im not really familiar with the US situation, but in Europe and South America, the majority of the wrestlers/ boxers are coming from blue color families.
Then, I have yet to see a blue color Aikido, TKD practitioner.
Judo and Karate (especially Kyokushin) are a bit different, because in general they are full contact sports on par with wrestling and boxing, so thats where the exceptions are.

Wrestling has a long heritage in the US in both blue collar and white collar communities. A lot of upper middle and upper class kids wrestle. What they don't typically do are competitive striking arts. To the extent there is a class divide in combat sports in the US, it's that rich people don't box competitively and never have. It's always been a blue collar sport, usually a black and immigrant sport (Jewish, Irish, and Italian immigrants in the early 20th century were big sources of boxing talent).

There is a lot of TKD everywhere in the US, mostly because a lot of Koreans immigrated here to teach and they went all over. Every small town has a TKD dojang or two. But I'd say it's treated as more of a kids' activity than a serious sport by the vast majority of people, lots of TKD programs are after-school babysitting as much as martial arts training. Grappling sports in general tend to have more adults and be trained more seriously. There aren't really many wrestling clubs, almost all wrestling is scholastic and if you can't make it to the next level (grade school -> high school -> university -> national team) you basically either move to coaching or stop training (or start training BJJ ).

I don't know who does Aikido. Hippies and academics I suppose.

 

[QingTian]

I think there was some observations made about Judo, Aikido, and Kendo in Japan. Kendoka had the highest level of education, followed by Aikido, and then the roughnecks in Judo.

Coincidentally (...) this pattern holds true in my family. I have a cousin who went to MIT in Kendo, another who went to the top UCs in Aikido, and then there's me in Judo.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think there was some observations made about Judo, Aikido, and Kendo in Japan. Kendoka had the highest level of education, followed by Aikido, and then the roughnecks in Judo.

Coincidentally (...) this pattern holds true in my family. I have a cousin who went to MIT in Kendo, another who went to the top UCs in Aikido, and then there's me in Judo.

So they're richer but you can beat them up?

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

the one from MIT is probably richer, smarter, and can stab him and his wife faster than you can say hansokumake

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I think there was some observations made about Judo, Aikido, and Kendo in Japan. Kendoka had the highest level of education, followed by Aikido, and then the roughnecks in Judo.

Coincidentally (...) this pattern holds true in my family. I have a cousin who went to MIT in Kendo, another who went to the top UCs in Aikido, and then there's me in Judo.

From what I have seen (my daughter has 2nd dan in Kendo and is currently in high school with wrestling scholarship), Kendo dedication is expensive.
To buy several shinais, armors and etc is already costly. Then, the majority of long time practitioners also buy katanas (think at least 3000 USD per piece) and it becomes a hobby that adds up.
So, its not very realistic for a blue collar worker to stick around Kendo for a long time.
I know a guy from Bulgaria, who also lives in Osaka and has something like 6th dan in Kendo and 7th in Aikido. He spent ridiculous amount of money on swords and armors.
Judo is seen as the wrestling of TMA in Japan- you can practice it anywhere, with 20 years old gi.
The places for TKD and Karate around the world and in Japan are mostly places where kids are brought by their parents. They are not that cheap and I believe its mainly middle class and up.
Boxing has always been the poor man's sport.
Wrestling is always a part of a school program and recruits natural athletes, to offer them scholarship in return of representing a team. So yeah, after college, uni, no more wrestling. Thats maybe the only sport, that one will hardly find a gym, outside of educational system.
BJJ is a bit mixed, but in general, majority of the practitioners are hipsters or middle class and up.
No Gi is prefered by blue collar guys.
Again, those are my observations, based on travels, not on only one country.

 

[Regular Joe]

BJJ is expensive IMO up here (Canada) so it's mostly practiced by middle class white people and/or their kids. People who want to do BJJ but can't afford it usually wind up doing Judo or some variant of Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. Wrestling is mostly non-existent outside of a few highschools and the university athletic system. You can find a TKD school or a Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu + (American style) kickboxing school on every corner. There are only a few sambo schools in the whole country.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

I was more commenting on how easy it seems to be to get a black belt in Japan compared to USA. One would think USA would have lower standards, like with TKD

BJJ is expensive IMO up here (Canada) so it's mostly practiced by middle class white people and/or their kids. People who want to do BJJ but can't afford it usually wind up doing Judo or some variant of Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. Wrestling is mostly non-existent outside of a few highschools and the university athletic system. You can find a TKD school or a Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu + (American style) kickboxing school on every corner. There are only a few sambo schools in the whole country.

What is Can Ryu?

 

[Regular Joe]

What is Can Ryu?

It's a hybrid of Kawaishi Jiu-Jitsu / Jujutsu and Chito-Ryu Karate. It's generally marketed as a self-defense system rather than a combat sport. There are a handful of pretty solid Can-Ryu schools but the majority that I'm aware of are McDojos that teach static techniques on compliant partners. (Most of them have added separate legit BJJ programs to their schools' offerings to keep up with the trends maintain their clientèle.)

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I was more commenting on how easy it seems to be to get a black belt in Japan compared to USA. One would think USA would have lower standards, like with TKD



What is Can Ryu?

That's because the belt system don't exist in Japan.
Here people go for dans, not belt color.
And even then, japanese judokas don't really care about dans that much.
So, if the source gives you a certificate directly, why bother jumping through hoops and playing politics, just to get that black belt?
Take a vacation, visit some famous tourist places in Japan, taste the food, train in japanese dojo, compete in Kodokan, get certified through combat, drink sake, buy souveniers for the family, fly home with memories for the rest of your life.

 

[Steve08]

Take a vacation, visit some famous tourist places in Japan, taste the food, train in japanese dojo, compete in Kodokan, get certified through combat, drink sake, buy souveniers for the family, fly home with memories for the rest of your life.

I've heard Japan is expensive as hell.

 

[Bayonet]

I've heard Japan is expensive as hell.

I spent some time bumming around Tokyo when I was younger; doing tourist stuff, staying at hostels, etc. I'd put it on par with other major cities. Toronto, New York, London. It can get expensive, but if you make an effort to live a simple lifestyle, it can be pretty cheap.

And before anyone asks, no I didn't train when I was in Japan. I wasn't into Judo or anything else back then, just another hairy round eye drinking up the Kirin, hassling the local women and farting around tourist attractions. If I only had that time back....

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I've heard Japan is expensive as hell.

I travel quite a lot and Id say its the same in all major cities around the world (Shanghai is more costly than Tokyo)
And then you should concider the quality- everything in Japan is worthed the price, except overpriced BJJ items- just came home from Isami shop, where they are asking for 350 usd for mat timer. I prefer to buy an iPad and install wrestling timer app.