Muay thai student transition to taekwondo

[JerkWeed]

Jones, Silva, and Saenchei aren't TKD practitioners.

Silva is.

 

[Jukai]

you missed my point ,,

my point was that some great fighters have that style , and other lesser fighters are trying to adopt that , only to find that they are not so great ,,, im not talking about tkd ,,, boxers emulate other boxing styles , muay thai , mma ... ect

im not saying tkd guys are emulating those ones i mentioned , im saying that they are emulating tkd practitioners style who fight like that , or have adapted a style where they prefer to fight with their hands down .

sorry but thats the best explanation i can give , it might be poppy c0ck , but its my opinion on the matter.

dont be disheartened , im sure there are tons of things going on in karate that are difficult to explain , oh heres one , please expalin why some karate guys stand on one foot and kick repeatedly with the front leg ? just kidding

Hahaha, first off, that's more of a Kyokushin thing, and I don't rep Kyokushin. I'm also far too scared to tell them they're doing it wrong.

And yeah, there are a lot of habits in Karate that I think are counter productive but still done (like the absolute collapse of stance and guard after an attack that 'competitor A' believes scored a point, simply to try and ALSO MAKE THE REFEREE think he scored a point. I've seen guys punch another guy, scream out a blood curdling war cry, then get up and turn away. The ref never called a stop, his opponent nails him in the back and scores the point. It's fucking dumb yet people at the highest level try and do it), yet it's not as widespread as the arms at waist TKD thing. It really is 85% of the Olympic competition, and when Olympians do it, there must be a reason. Or, well, I thought there must be :icon_sad:

Silva is.

Sorry, I misphrased that. Silva is an MMA competitor, but you're right, a lot of his technique is TKD. Hell, maybe that's why he is so comfortable with his arms down, who knows.

 

[Azam]

if you watch kyokushin karate where body punching and kicking are the focus , their guard is lowered to protect their body , not face area .

I don't agree with that view (ignoring the fact that I'm a kyokushin practitioner), if you watch kyokushin knockout video's, you will see the guard being lowered to protect the body, but usually when that is done, it's followed by a head kick KO - i.e. any good Kyokushin karateka will always keep his guard near shoulder/chest level because if it's too low you risk getting your head kicked in & if it's too high you get your body smashed in - I know when outsiders look at kyokushin videos it may seem that the guard is taught low - it isn't, nearly every dojo will teach you to have a strong kamae with your hands at shoulder/chest level - there are exceptions though & there are very very few guys that have a low guard & get away with it like Garry O'neill but they have very zippy footwork.

Also note that the whole body is the area of contact under the neck, this includes the clavicle & chest areas, there are plenty of punches in kyokushin aimed at the clavicle & upper body.

If there is a weakness with the tournament format, it is the fact that it can give rise to tournament fighters (catered just to knock-down format) who's fighting style is based on the knock-down format, they usually tend to have difficulty defending against punches to the face because of timing & distance issue's --- i.e. fighters like Teixeira, Tariel & many other Russian fighters today in the IKO1, Navarro, Kostov.

Then you have kyokushin fighters who wouldn't have such a bad time adjusting the difference in distance & timing, they tend to be the fighter's in knockdown format who prefer to fight just within their range (obviously there are times they go in as well) -- i.e. fighters like Andy Hug, Kenji Midori, Filho, Masuda, Gary O'neill, Ademir Da Costa, Michael Thompson, Hajime Kazumi.

 

[peanut66]

I don't agree with that view (ignoring the fact that I'm a kyokushin practitioner), if you watch kyokushin knockout video's, you will see the guard being lowered to protect the body, but usually when that is done, it's followed by a head kick KO - i.e. any good Kyokushin karateka will always keep his guard near shoulder/chest level because if it's too low you risk getting your head kicked in & if it's too high you get your body smashed in - I know when outsiders look at kyokushin videos it may seem that the guard is taught low - it isn't, nearly every dojo will teach you to have a strong kamae with your hands at shoulder/chest level - there are exceptions though & there are very very few guys that have a low guard & get away with it like Garry O'neill but they have very zippy footwork.

Also note that the whole body is the area of contact under the neck, this includes the clavicle & chest areas, there are plenty of punches in kyokushin aimed at the clavicle & upper body.

If there is a weakness with the tournament format, it is the fact that it can give rise to tournament fighters (catered just to knock-down format) who's fighting style is based on the knock-down format, they usually tend to have difficulty defending against punches to the face because of timing & distance issue's --- i.e. fighters like Teixeira, Tariel & many other Russian fighters today in the IKO1, Navarro, Kostov.

Then you have kyokushin fighters who wouldn't have such a bad time adjusting the difference in distance & timing, they tend to be the fighter's in knockdown format who prefer to fight just within their range (obviously there are times they go in as well) -- i.e. fighters like Andy Hug, Kenji Midori, Filho, Masuda, Gary O'neill, Ademir Da Costa, Michael Thompson, Hajime Kazumi.

what part of my post did you not agree on though ,,, i said the guard is lower to cover the body ,, what i mean by lower is that its lower than a boxers high guard ,where a boxers focus is protecting his head , and kyokoshin the focus is on protecting the body .

 

[Azam]

what part of my post did you not agree on though ,,, i said the guard is lower to cover the body ,, what i mean by lower is that its lower than a boxers high guard ,where a boxers focus is protecting his head , and kyokoshin the focus is on protecting the body .

The focus isn't on protecting the body so much, it's on protecting the head from a kick - that's what I disagree with, most guys can take a hammering in the body, but when it comes to your head everyone has their limit, you can't train your head to take head kicks lol that's why the focus is more on the head less on the body - that's with good knockdown fighters anyway, that's why during training we keep our guard up to shoulder/chest level - its always stressed because you can protect the body & more importantly the head -

You said the guard is lowered to protect the body not the face area, that is wrong the guard is kept at chest/shoulder level to protect the face & body - it's optimal distance, if we needed to protect are body more than our head or face, we wouldn't bother conditioning our bodies to the degree we do.

 

[peanut66]

The focus isn't on protecting the body so much, it's on protecting the head from a kick - that's what I disagree with, most guys can take a hammering in the body, but when it comes to your head everyone has their limit, you can't train your head to take head kicks lol that's why the focus is more on the head less on the body - that's with good knockdown fighters anyway, that's why during training we keep our guard up to shoulder/chest level - its always stressed because you can protect the body & more importantly the head -

You said the guard is lowered to protect the body not the face area, that is wrong the guard is kept at chest/shoulder level to protect the face & body - it's optimal distance, if we needed to protect are body more than our head or face, we wouldn't bother conditioning our bodies to the degree we do.

Kyokushinkai Karate best KOs with MWNN - YouTube

from what im seeing , the focus is on protecting the body ,, alot of these guys get kicked in the head because of their lower body guard

 

[Azam]

Kyokushinkai Karate best KOs with MWNN - YouTube

from what im seeing , the focus is on protecting the body ,, alot of these guys get kicked in the head because of their lower body guard

The video proves what I'm saying, if your guard is low to the body like you were saying ---> you get kicked in the head - your an open target, that is why having the guard at chest/shoulder level is stressed in Kyokushin - obviously if you lower your guard like that you'll get kicked in the head - that's what I said in my comment before to you

'if you watch kyokushin knockout video's, you will see the guard being lowered to protect the body, but usually when that is done, it's followed by a head kick KO'

Not all of those guy's have a low guard, some of them fell victim to tactics as well, but I'm straying from the point.

The only time the guard is lowered is when your so close to the other fighter that it's near impossible to get kicked to the head or your out of range - otherwise good knockdown fighters keep hands at chest/shoulder level, to emphasis this the video below between Masuda & Midori shows you wear the guard is & how it changes with the distance, but otherwise there hands remain at that level, the reason is because if it's too low you get kicked in the head (i.e. the knockout video's you just showed are the result).







EDIT:Yes that is Dolph Lundgren at 3min something

 

[peanut66]

The video proves what I'm saying, if your guard is low to the body like you were saying ---> you get kicked in the head - your an open target, that is why having the guard at chest/shoulder level is stressed in Kyokushin - obviously if you lower your guard like that you'll get kicked in the head - that's what I said in my comment before to you

'if you watch kyokushin knockout video's, you will see the guard being lowered to protect the body, but usually when that is done, it's followed by a head kick KO'

Not all of those guy's have a low guard, some of them fell victim to tactics as well, but I'm straying from the point.

The only time the guard is lowered is when your so close to the other fighter that it's near impossible to get kicked to the head or your out of range - otherwise good knockdown fighters keep hands at chest/shoulder level, to emphasis this the video below between Masuda & Midori shows you wear the guard is & how it changes with the distance, but otherwise there hands remain at that level, the reason is because if it's too low you get kicked in the head (i.e. the knockout video's you just showed are the result).







EDIT:Yes that is Dolph Lundgren at 3min something

i am calling a low guard at chest and shoulders , a raelly low guard at belt level and a high guard at the ear level, you keep disagreeing with me but then post a video of what im talikng about ,,, the fighters in the video have a guard at their chest as to protect their bodies ,,,

 

[Jukai]

i am calling a low guard at chest and shoulders , a raelly low guard at belt level and a high guard at the ear level, you keep disagreeing with me but then post a video of what im talikng about ,,, the fighters in the video have a guard at their chest as to protect their bodies ,,,

LOL I'm just poking fun, but shouldn't it be high guard, mid guard and low guard... instead of high guard, low guard, and really low guard?

 

[peanut66]

LOL I'm just poking fun, but shouldn't it be high guard, mid guard and low guard... instead of high guard, low guard, and really low guard?

now i wish i had a popcorn gif,

i think we are all talking about the same thing , its all in referrence to a boxers high guard ,, or really high guard . lol

 

[Azam]

i am calling a low guard at chest and shoulders , a raelly low guard at belt level and a high guard at the ear level, you keep disagreeing with me but then post a video of what im talikng about ,,, the fighters in the video have a guard at their chest as to protect their bodies ,,,

First of all that is a mid-ish sort of guard, because it's halfway from your head & body. Yes the fighters in that video are protecting their bodies & more importantly there heads, they are not solely protecting their bodies nor is that the focus like you were saying that's why I disagreed, I would know because I train Kyokushin 3 days a week lol that guard is optimal distance between head & body - (guarding at chest/shoulder level), the guard is not at their chest to just protect their bodies - it's at the chest/shoulder to protect the head & body, the focus is the head, if the purpose was to just protect the body, the guard would be a lot lower, that's all I'm saying, the reason you see knockout's is when the guard drops more than it should.

Guard should look similar to this (Midori's in that video is roughly the same as well):

 

[98bird]

i got a better idea ,, why dont you go to a real WTF tkd or a ITF tkd school and spar with them , hands up , down low , however you like .

Already do. There are some that can beat me and some that I can beat. The point still remains that training like that is poor techniques and merely grasping onto traditions and wasting a student's time.

you say you know tkd , but the only reference you give is a horse back riding stance or a bunch of videos ,which tells me that you have only taken a few beginner classes and havent even got past the warm up yet , why dont you try real life experience ,

Wrong, my point was that, in general....TKD schools will force someone w/no TKD experience to learn all of that in the beginning which is pretty much useless in a fight.

i make my comments based on actual real life experiences , i spar muay thai , bjj , karate ,kung fu , boxers , kick boxers ,, and thats why i dont run them down , becuase i have a respect for their art ,, so far you knocked down tkd and kung fu .

Well I came from TKD so I'm well aware of what is taught. Maybe you should try re-reading what I said rather than jumping to conclusions that I'm totally against everything about TKD.

the funny thing is that part of our mma training consists of skipping rope , walking like a duck , walking like a bear , rolling on the ground , horse back stance up and down against a wall and a bunch of other stupid things that dont resemble fighting at all ,,, my coaches must be stupid too .

Well if you think that skipping rope and walking like a duck, & bear, etc...is the same as training fighting forms & stances, then that's really funny. Pretty huge difference between throwing a punch and doing pushups.

i also would like to add that most of the tkd classes ive ever taken , or taught , have not been in a horse back riding stance , and punching with my hands down low like you keep trying to insist , maybe kids classes or beginer classes that drill is used , but the majority of the workout was foot work drills , kicking drills , countering and attacking drills , using my hands and arms to block and punch , no body has ever told me to keep my hands down when i kick , you will learn real fast where your hands feel the most comfortable , and blocking kicks to your head and face with your hands is normal , i dont know why you have this idea that keeping yopur hands down is trained into a tkd fighter ,, their hand placement is based on where they feel the fastest ,, in boxing the fight is very close distance , so obviously a higher guard is needed , but thats not always the case ,,, maybe have a lookj at roy jones jrs hand placement ,,, it definatley a comfort issue .

Can you prove this by listing at least 5 video links? Or does it only happen in your school, like a unicorn.

Surely there must be some evidence of this, especially in high level competition and such in South Korea under the ITF banner.

 

[98bird]

Why is that poor instruction if that's the style they're going to be learning to fight in? I take it you're a boxing guy. You know what the "basics" of boxing used to look like?

But wait... why aren't his hands touching his face? He can't possibly be a very good technical boxer. Boxing philosophy has changed--a lot of people will say it hasn't been for the better. Gloves got bigger, fights got shorter, and fighters overall got worse at defense. "Hands up" is an easy thing to fall back to, but it doesn't replace the effectiveness of good head movement and footwork.

Are you serious? He's posing for a picture. Usually, fighters who are posing for a picture, try not to cover their face, haha.

And I'm really not sure why you think you can say that Ali had horrible technique. He wasn't the most technical fighter ever, but he had great footwork, and good defense.

Ok, but can you tell me which boxing gym has trainers who teaches beginners and intermediates to keep their hands down?

And how exactly do you know what Floyd was first taught? There's actually quite a lineage to his style of defense. He didn't make it up himself, you know. That's the way that his father and uncle fought, and they're the ones who trained him. I can almost guarantee you that he was taught his crab style from the start.

Yea, until he gets KTFO a few times, and then he trains the right way until he develops his counterfighting game.

Really. You seriously should find a skilled TKD fighter to spar with. I don't think you realize how difficult their fighting style can be to counter.

Given that I am a TKD, it would be pretty amazing for me to have not sparred against skilled TKD fighters.

I never mentioned the reason they kept their hands down. I only said that high hands are not a necessary part of most TKD fighters' defense. They tend to use their footwork.

So no other styles knows this thing called, footwork?

You mean every drill you do mimics fighting exactly? You never do punch-out drills? You never do jump squats or skip rope? That's definitely a first.

So you think skipping rope is the same as being taught to throw arm punches from the waist with the other hand going to the other side of the waist with zero pivoting? When was the last time a boxer started jumping in the ring during a fight with his hands mimicking like he was skipping rope? Oh, never? And when was the last time you saw a TKD fight with his hands down at waist level on YouTube? Almost all the time.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but the reason for the low hands is to add some more deceptive angles for punches, to draw your opponent in, and because your hands can be doing their own thing while you use footwork and head movement to defend attacks.

These are part of the reasons, but the main reason is because Mayweather is a reflex fighter. He developed himself into one but was not specifically taught to be one from the very beginning. Beginners are taught the right way, hands up. No one is taught to keep both hands at their waist like TKD does. Can you direct me to any boxing gym that does?

 

[98bird]

Should i be asking you this question? You keep saying what will and wont work in MMA. I take it youre a seasoned cage fighter?

No, I was saying that I want to see YOU do it in the UFC. I never said that it doesn't work, there are plenty of fighters that do so. And no, I'm not a seasoned cage fighter.

 

[98bird]

Is that Legs Mahoney? If not then you fail at reading.

 

[98bird]

I didn't say anything about keeping my hands down. What I said is, repeating "HANDS UP" is a mantra for newbies, and it is. If you know anything about striking you understand how not to get hit and you don't need to be reminded where to put your hands, I'd hope you'd be beyond that in the first year to eighteen months.

Can you direct me to the gyms that teaches hands down at the waist like TKD then?

 

[98bird]

and LOL at keeping your hands down to stabilize your base with tkd kicks

keiji Ozaki had some of the fastest spinning kicks Ive ever seen and he didn't drop his hand down at his waist to throw them.




First the tkd white belt stance now this

Oh 98 bird you silly goose you.:icon_chee

That's nice, but that's one of the reasons that it's taught in TKD though.

 

[98bird]

I'm not saying 98Bird is right, but I also heard that WTF fighters keep their hands down for stability. Why else would they keep their hands down to their hips?

haha, you're not saying that i'm right but this is exactly what i said.

 

[Jukai]

haha, you're not saying that i'm right but this is exactly what i said.

So, what benefits do you get as being classified as functionally retarded?

I was asking for clarification. I'm not saying you're right because I have no idea.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Is that Legs Mahoney? If not then you fail at reading.

Yes that is me.