LISS after HIIT ?

[JauntyAngle]

I've heard not easing with each step, and just having the foot slam down eventually causes joint issues down the line.

What do you mean by "easing with each step"? I've never heard of such a thing about running, and can't visualize it.

I believe that forefoot striking reduces the shock- you use eccentric action of the calf muscle to somewhat control the decent of the heel, leading to a very soft, cushioned turnaround. I taught myself to do it a few years ago and it felt pretty awesome. Felt like I could run on eggshells. Is that what you mean?

 

[j123]

What do you mean by "easing with each step"? I've never heard of such a thing about running, and can't visualize it.

I believe that forefoot striking reduces the shock- you use eccentric action of the calf muscle to somewhat control the decent of the heel, leading to a very soft, cushioned turnaround. I taught myself to do it a few years ago and it felt pretty awesome. Felt like I could run on eggshells. Is that what you mean?

kind of coming down, and pushing off with ball of the foot. Its kind of hard to explain.

Okay, I think forefoot running, and what you mentioned was what I meant, after a quick glace at some youtube videos.

 

[JauntyAngle]

kind of coming down, and pushing off with ball of the foot. Its kind of hard to explain.

Okay, I think forefoot running, and what you mentioned was what I meant, after a quick glace at some youtube videos.

Ah, okay.

It's actually really easy to do. Most people will do it instinctively if they try to run in a pair of shoes with hard heels- you pretty much have to land on the ball of the foot and then try to slow the decent of the heel so you don't jar the living fuck out of your skeleton when the heel lands. But it is something that you need to adapt to over quite a few months- other than shredding the crap out of your calves to a degree that is hard to believe, you can, apparently, lose your arches if you switch to it too quickly.

It tends to automatically fix your cadence and stride length too- you simply can't take long strides, and so it switches you to shorter, quicker strides.

 

[MMouse]

Not sure if this has been asked but when it comes to building aerobic base, does frequency matter or so aslong overall volume is met?

Three 2 hour sessions vs six 1 hour sessions?

 

[Badger67]

Both technically.
You want the hearts chambers to be able to undergo longer filling and emptying to produce changes to the tissue like left ventricular hypertrophy (physiological is harmless, pathological is the one doctors worry about). This would be volume. But if you only did it once every two weeks there is no appreciable athleti semi or permanent adjustments.

But you also want to protect your joints and not weaken immune response which can happen over prolonged or intense exercise so a 6 hour session may not be the best. 3 x 2hr is fine if you worked your way up to it.

 

[Genghiz]

Not sure if this has been asked but when it comes to building aerobic base, does frequency matter or so aslong overall volume is met?

Three 2 hour sessions vs six 1 hour sessions?

I've read that the minimum is 30 minutes 3x week, but best results occur with 45mins+

For at least 5-6 weeks.

 

[JRT6]

As far as runners I believe the thought is that aerobic conditioning is best worked almost exclusively because once you're in season the anaerobic work stops aerobic gains. The same for interval day, once the anaerobic work is done there is no way any aerobic work is going to have a training effect. You're just wasting energy.

 

[Genghiz]

As far as runners I believe the thought is that aerobic conditioning is best worked almost exclusively because once you're in season the anaerobic work stops aerobic gains. The same for interval day, once the anaerobic work is done there is no way any aerobic work is going to have a training effect. You're just wasting energy.

Depends on the adaptation you're going for. Anaerobic work will still improve the aerobic system through different pathways but won't necessarily give you the same aerobic adaptations that LISS will (ventricular hypertrophy). There's plenty of crossover and you need both.

Pure LISS and anaerobic work compete with each other in some ways(opposing adaptations?) and LISS also requires 3-7 sessions a week to reap the most benefits. So it's impractical to train them together.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I've read that the minimum is 30 minutes 3x week, but best results occur with 45mins+

For at least 5-6 weeks.

There's probably a difference between initial base-building, and periodic maintenance. If you never built your aerobic base, I think it will take a lot longer than 6 weeks to get it to a good level. I think you would probably be talking 4-6 months, but I am sort of pulling that out of my ass. But once you have an aerobic base, I think 5-6 weeks every now and then to maintain it or even improve it a tiny bit should be okay.

 

[JRT6]

Depends on the adaptation you're going for. Anaerobic work will still improve the aerobic system through different pathways but won't necessarily give you the same aerobic adaptations that LISS will (ventricular hypertrophy). There's plenty of crossover and you need both.

That's been a rationale with HIIT for years and it's since been shown to be very over stated. Just because the aerobic system is used to some extent in HIIT it's development in the absence of dedicated aerobic work is rather minimal.

As far as training both concurrently there's so much debate with Mafetone on the slow to you die side and the other side where guys do 60/40 or even the heretical Run Fast Run Less crowd. CF Endurance probably being the most extreme.

 

[Genghiz]

That's been a rationale with HIIT for years and it's since been shown to be very over stated. Just because the aerobic system is used to some extent in HIIT it's development in the absence of dedicated aerobic work is rather minimal.

As far as training both concurrently there's so much debate with Mafetone on the slow to you die side and the other side where guys do 60/40 or even the heretical Run Fast Run Less crowd. CF Endurance probably being the most extreme.

All this depends on what your goal is for developing the aerobic system and how much of a priority it is for your sport.

I didn't say the aerobic system could be developed optimally with HIIT alone. Far from it, I think LISS is mandatory if your sport has an aerobic component. Just that it doesn't stop developing after you stop Base and transition into speed work. There's more than one aerobic adaptation, not just the ventricular hypertrophy provided by LISS. There's contractile force, developing more efficient mitochondria and heart wall thickness. All of these contribute to the aerobic system even though the can be developed through non-LISS methods. You can run fartleks for an hour or longer but they're not LISS, because of the speed intervals you won't get optimal ventricular hypertrophy like you would with pure LISS kept at 120-150bpm. But fartleks will give you benefits LISS won't.

Same with If you run hill sprints with a fairly low work to rest ratio, your aerobic system kicks in after the first two minutes, even though it's "HIIT". And that's fine, because LISS won't give you certain adaptations as well as HIIT and vice versa.

Maffetone suggests LISS/Base Building for only part of the year to maximize the benefits of LISS ventricular hypertrophy and more efficient fat-burning-as-fuel. I believe it's only 3 months. After that his runners all move into speed work and tempo. Most people misrepresent Maffetone method thinking it's all slow all the time.

LISS is one tool to maximize a few aerobic adaptations you won't get as effectively doing other things. You still need those other things (tempo, speed work, HIIT) to fill in the remaining blanks that LISS won't give you. So if you need to be well rounded then you do it all. One of the reasons LISS is done by itself is because any speed work will cause the heart to beat too fast, so blood doesn't hang around in the ventricle, so you don't get the desired stretch/hypertrophy of that left ventricle.

 

[Genghiz]

There's probably a difference between initial base-building, and periodic maintenance. If you never built your aerobic base, I think it will take a lot longer than 6 weeks to get it to a good level. I think you would probably be talking 4-6 months, but I am sort of pulling that out of my ass. But once you have an aerobic base, I think 5-6 weeks every now and then to maintain it or even improve it a tiny bit should be okay.

You might be equating aerobic base building with long runs. Athletes can still go for long runs after their Base Building period (if their sport calls for it) but they're no longer restricted by the "Slow" and "steady" part of LISS. Endurance runners are still going for long runs after Base is over, but they'll be going faster and working on speed/tempo/pacing, not bound by upper limit HR.

Length of Base is determined by your sport. I think Maffetone prescribes a 3-4 month period for runners, Jamieson advocates 5-6 weeks for fighters within the scheme of a fight camp/block system (I believe, don't have the book in front of me) and Tactical Barbell is somewhere in the middle for crosstraining athletes with 6-8 weeks.

After that initial Base period, (for example) if you're a distance runner you'd still be running distance but adding speed, if you're a fighter you might transition to HIIT and strength, and if you're training for military you'd continue to go for long rucks, runs and swims, but without the HR limit.

But I get what you're saying, someone rolling off the couch is going to need a different set of principles, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Noodles03]

One of the reasons LISS is done by itself is because any speed work will cause the heart to beat too fast, so blood doesn't hang around in the ventricle, so you don't get the desired stretch/hypertrophy of that left ventricle.

That makes sense. I always wonder about if high intensity cardio will eventually cause hypertrophy on the left ventricular of the heart.

 

[Genghiz]

That makes sense. I always wonder about if high intensity cardio will eventually cause hypertrophy on the left ventricular of the heart.

I am certainly no expert, just regurgitating info from sources I trust, whose methods work for me. I tend to shy away from the do-only-this camp. There's a place and context for everything depending on your goal. If I was a power lifter I probably wouldn't worry about LISS too much and just get what little aerobic/anaerobic conditioning I needed from HIIT. As someone who trains & prioritizes Muay Thai, you can be damn sure I'll be including a LISS/Base Building Block as part of my annual plan.

 

[selfcritical]

The other reason for variation when including real HIIT (in excess of your maximal aerobic speed) is that most coaches observation in track seems to be that intervals stop producing adaptations in speed-endurance after about 3 weeks. So it just makes sense to hit something else hard until you can actually adapt to higher intensity methods again.

 

[Noodles03]

I have another questions for you guys. Let say for boxing or muay thai, can you focus on HIIT on the heavy bag, drills and mitt works and do LISS outside your skill training such as jump roping or jogging?

 

[j123]

I have another questions for you guys. Let say for boxing or muay thai, can you focus on HIIT on the heavy bag, drills and mitt works and do LISS outside your skill training such as jump roping or jogging?

Thats actually a pretty standard routine in striking sports. Roadwork (LISS) on your own time, padwork/bagwork (pretty much a tabata when you think about it), and sparring in the gym with your coach and partners

 

[roventu]

Ah, okay.

It's actually really easy to do. Most people will do it instinctively if they try to run in a pair of shoes with hard heels- you pretty much have to land on the ball of the foot and then try to slow the decent of the heel so you don't jar the living fuck out of your skeleton when the heel lands. But it is something that you need to adapt to over quite a few months- other than shredding the crap out of your calves to a degree that is hard to believe, you can, apparently, lose your arches if you switch to it too quickly.

It tends to automatically fix your cadence and stride length too- you simply can't take long strides, and so it switches you to shorter, quicker strides.

wait so you land on the forefoot and then descend to the heel? Are you running backwards?? lol

when i run, i land on midfoot then move towards ball of foot. i am definitely not imagining the right thing then

 

[JauntyAngle]

wait so you land on the forefoot and then descend to the heel? Are you running backwards?? lol

That's how you "forefoot strike". You can either land midfoot, on the heel or forefoot. Runners do all three kinds, but as you go up to higher levels of runners, the proportion of those using forefoot striking increases. It's meant to be particularly common with East African runners who grew up running without shoes or with shoes with minimal support and padding.

Quite a lot of people think that forefoot striking promotes better running form and reduces injuries.

It's actually pretty hard to forefoot strike in modern running shoes- the thickness of the heel padding is so much that you have to really pronate your foot in order to land on the forefoot. But it comes fairly naturally if you run in more minimalist shoes.

I myself go backwards and forwards. I switched for a while, but then my running became more sporadic, and so I switched back. It takes quite a long time to get used to it, and if you over-do it when you are not used to it you get something far beyond DOMS. So when I was running intermittently I just stayed with heel striking. Nowadays I don't run at all.

 

[Noodles03]

JauntyAngle, I have a pair of running shoes that is design more for stability (Brooks Adrenaline GT). Should I eventually get a pair of minimal running shoes? The reason I ask because I've read in the past that minimal type of running shoe can strengthen up the muscle and tendon within feet where as stability shoes can actually weaken the feet. I was wondering if that is true or not.