Kyokushin vs TKD?
- Thread starter Muerto
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What does training method have to do with discussing two martial arts and their respective techniques?
A martial art is not defined by it's training. Training/conditioning methods can change through times and schools. A WTFer can train without pads and incorporate his knee techniques into full contact sparring. Only an idiot would refrain from doing so before facing a Kyokushin opponent.
Heres how it can go:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PXZyhrx0gk
This is an old ass thread but I'll bite anyway. A WTF TKD person CAN train with methods similar to Kyokushin, but you see 99.9% do not and absolutely will not. I've been in TKD communities that consisted of people from all types of federations and the culture of TKD is the heavily padded point fighting crowd. And that's ok with them. 99.9% of TKD people have no interest in style vs. style, kickboxing or MMA competition. They only care about doing their sport.
What you're saying is like saying "yeah a hockey player can train lay ups and beat Kobe Bryant on the basketball court."
I am not making any claims about the current state of affairs. This hypotethical between techniques is only relevant having it "all else equal" - the same conditioning/preperation. And like I said, a martial art is not defined by it's conditioning or padding.
This match up is of some theoretical interest, given that their sparring regulations with no punching to the face, makes them familar with each other, in a way other match up between arts isn't.
Edit: Taekwondo is not a sport - it's a martial art, allowing sport competition.
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There are quite a few TKD practitioners that partake in open knockdown karate tourneys. Actually there a quite a few different styles that also compete. They like to invite lots of different people.
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I disagree.
Artistic styles only exist as a tradition of teachers, students and practitioners expressing themselves. Padding and conditioning, as well as the environments that the artist can perform in, are the essence of the art - not the collection of petty techniques.
If you had two boxers that learned everything the same way - except that one always wore and fought in gloves, doing no conditioning besides running and push ups, and another boxer who only understood boxing as a bare knuckle activity and only power lifted for conditioning, at the end of a few years they would be very different men. They would move differently. They would pace differently. They would hit differently. They would emphasize different blocking techniques and if they had students they wouldn't at all be the same.
Even if both sides shared every same petty technique, you couldn't say they had the same art.
My wife has a good ear for music. On occasion she has guessed someone's music teacher, different instruments or conducting, or mistaken a composer for his student, by ear alone. Two pianists might know all the same techniques and music but their styles would be different, because maybe they have a different understanding of what it means to be musical, what scales are important to practice or how big of a hall their sound needs to project through - and if they routinely solo or accompany.
TKD vs Kyokushin may or may not be as different as the violin to the trumpet, but they sure sound different when played.
I've been to Kyokushin class. I know their deal. I've taken TKD. I can honestly say that the only differences in petty techniques I can think of are a kick here or there.
What makes them different are the conditioning methods and their conduct on the sparring floor, both within their own group and when going free style, in large part due to attitude condition from scoring method and pads.
From a free style perspective, I don't like either one. As a part of mma, it doesn't matter because they both just provide guns for the boxer / wrestler to fire. When pitted against one another, either the TKD guy will crumple from chest punches or donky kick the Kyokushin guys nuts into his throat. For self defense, strength and being willing to strike early are still more important than petty technique.
Finally, nothing exists in a vacuum. The local TKD school here sends people to the Olympic team. They host BJJ seminars and half the club either boxes or wrestles. Most of the Kyokushin men I've known are Judoka.
You can't take the artist out of the art.
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I don't know if the Kyokushin roundhouse is different from the traditional mawashi geri of older karate styles. If not, then WTF-stylists throw different roundhouses, since they go diagonally.
Furthermore, Taekwondo guys have a much broader arsenal of aerial kicks at their disposal. WTF Taekwondo guys are recognized as the most proficient kickers in the world. They are like boxers, only with their feet instead. They emphazise 90% kicking, 10% punching. You get good at what you do....
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How do they fare next to the Kyokushin guys?
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Hahaha oh wow Kyokushin Karate > TKD all the way. The absolute toughest guy I know was a kyokushin champ multiple times and is now doing kickboxing - muay thai. Kyokushin Karate will make you tough. Because of the way they fight, I know it is the toughest striking art there is. Even when I see him spar against a pro Muay thai fighter above his level he just doesn't give a fuck. He rarely blocks low kicks because most people don't kick his legs hard enough. The only time he bothered blocking low kicks is when I saw him spar a guy who once was a European Muay thai champ whose specialty were low kicks, a guy who made TKO's by leg kicks in R1 against the best.
Let's see the benefits of Kyokushin Karate:
pros:
>toughness
>fearlessness
>fighting spirit
>extremely hard kicks, harder than most Muay thai guys and also a very diverse kicking arsenal
>high level of conditioning
cons:
>boxing is meh
I admit, hands are not their strong point.
Meanwhile I trained and sparred a few guys in kickboxing with a taekwondo background. none of them impressed me, at all. They can't deal with a little pressure, so boxing them up works good, and I'm more of a kicker myself (taught by the guy above). All TKD guys have is a nice arsenal of special kicks. If you keep your hands up they barely land since their hands are generally not that good to force you in any position. They don't have that toughness I talked about earlier. When sparring a guy from TKD, I do the opposite of what I usually do because it is so easy:
>go forward, I generally fight on the outside using straight punches and hard kicks
>box more, kicks are my strongest weapon
> low kick, I prefer mid and high kicks, they have trouble with low kicks
Even when I let them dictate the range they are meh. Their roundhouse kicks are decent, but nothing special compared to most kickboxers.
The only reason to do TKD is to learn their wide arsenal of spectacular kicks, and don't expect them to be of use in k-1 style fights if you don't have any serious boxing training. Even kyokushing karatekas have better boxing and that is what I consider their weak point. Spectacular kicks can also be learned in Kyokushin Karate and I personally upped my kicking game a lot by learning from the guy I described above. I assume TKD has a bigger kicking arsenal, but I never noticed the difference in practice. TKD fighters fight more point-based and barely ever go all-out, while a Kyokushin fighter can just not give a fuck and start banging.
All in all, I thought Muay Thai was the best, until I met some Kyokushin guys and they kicked my ass pretty good, so I learned from them, while I have never been impressed by any taekwondo fighter I met, except for the execution of a single kick in technique training.
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Forever Changes
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Tkd lacks technique to go with leg *kicks. Not a knock on tkd. They have some nice kicks.
Some can take anything, while others are weak. It's partly genetics. Our legs aren't exactly weak.
Well, yeah. I'm pretty sure a grizzly bear could murder me with no martial arts training too.
Seriously though, it seems like the vast majority of people who haven't gotten leg kicked can't take them. For those people training helps. If you do TKD chances are you don't train getting kicked in the legs much.
It's the same situation for both (WTF) TKD and Kyoukushin as far as decent head movement and neck positioning goes FWIW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26Wg_Y4stY
This (ITF) guy could take it easily. I am not sure why WTF guys would do worse.
...Pretty sure lack of ability to avoid/soak leg kicks lost him all of his mobility and then got him dumped repeatedly.
And WTF will generally do (slightly) worse because the ruleset encourages a more bladed stance, which exposes the back of the leg even more. It also encourages more of a start-stop style since hand work is almost worse than useless in that ruleset.
If you look closely, you might notice his mobility and speed always sucked:wink: He fought and kicked like an 80 year old.
The Kyokokushin-(WTF) TKD clips are few, but 2 out of three were decided by punches to the stomach, downing the TKD guys. One of them TKD won, which I posted.
About his mobility: if you say so. He didn't look bad to me, he's immobile by WTF standards but he's pretty quick. A little too bouncy for full contact maybe.
Frankly good Thais are just gonna be a terrible matchup for basically anyone else with a kick-based game if the ruleset lets them catch and sweep. Boxing-like talent pool and athletic depth, lots of practice catching kicks and countering after the catch.
All I've got is my experience (WTF > big break > Kyokushin), and trying to use WTF strategies in the Kyo ruleset ended up with me getting spun repeatedly and my front leg annihilated. I did manage to land back-kicks with good frequency, I imagine going full bore with that strategy I'd manage to get spin kick KOs every so often, but less often than I'd get my legs blown up and then body punched to a living death.
Squaring up your front leg a bit and throwing in combination and feet (both of which WTF competition basically discourages) keeps people from doing that.
Well since I've done both WTF and (nowdays) ITF, I can say safely conclude he's slow. ITF guys are less acrobatic, but not significantly slower.
Found one of an ITF world champion opposite Kyokushin competitior - open style tournament. Though throws were allowed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TkOFqQet0
Kyokushin guy got his ass handed to him.
That guy's a fun fighter to watch!
Pretty sure that any TKD/Kyo matchup that features throws will go by the guy who can throw by default. Although UFC 1 probably proves that in a general sense.
I mean he got his ass handed to him in striking. O well, if he couldn't throw it's pretty stupid to enter a tournament were you can. TKD does not teach much throwing at all, only a little bit and not all schools.
....yeah, most TKD schools don't teach throwing. I'd say that guy looks like he was on a level where he'd had a lot more practice throwing than "most TKD schools" teach. And I actually disagree about the Kyo guy getting his ass handed to him; there was one sweet reverse round kick the TKD guy landed, most of the rest of it was blocked/looked nice but didn't do much damage.
If you consider that it's clearly a compilation of "strikes the TKD guy landed", I think the fight was probably a very clear win for the TKD guy but not an absolute ass beating, you can see the Kyo guy covering up and regaining momentum at the start/stop of some of the clips.
I think we're just arguing from opposite sides of the same thing here; I'm agree if you take TKD into a throwing/full contact ruleset a bunch you'll get something like the TKD guy in that video and kick some ass; I don't think you'll get anything like that guy's results if you don't practice for the ruleset though.
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