Kyokushin vs TKD?

You need to watch a bit more knockdown karate - while knockdown tactics have gone downhill in the modern age - there is a lot going on technically & subtly that goes over many people because they can't see it.

Like being able to notice why Ryu Narushima can head kick people so quickly, with so much power while being so close better than anybody else - technical stuff like this translates over the board. Another one that translates is why Hajime Kazumi can take out someone's base (legs) while avoiding significant punishment from kicks/punches.


Many Dutch kickboxing combinations were originally combinations that were found in knockdown karate - some were adapted, some like the left hook to the body & low kick are exact copies of their knockdown originals - with the added jab to the face.

5bmyp_zps670943f5.gif



But Dutch kickboxing & Kyokushin Karate deviated a long time ago and they have their own unique subset of combos & among other things.
 
spacetime said:
Are you talking about Kyokushin now? Anyway, a martial art im which the sparring format consists of starring down at each other, all while kneeing, punching the opponents mid section is about as unrealistic as it gets. Looks crazy too.
Click to expand...

Aren't you the guy who made up the quote about Mike Tyson being scared of Jujitsu? Thanks for giving your opinion.
 
Azam said:
You need to watch a bit more knockdown karate - while knockdown tactics have gone downhill in the modern age - there is a lot going on technically & subtly that goes over many people because they can't see it.

Like being able to notice why Ryu Narushima can head kick people so quickly, with so much power while being so close better than anybody else - technical stuff like this translates over the board. Another one that translates is why Hajime Kazumi can take out someone's base (legs) while avoiding significant punishment from kicks/punches.


Many Dutch kickboxing combinations were originally combinations that were found in knockdown karate - some were adapted, some like the left hook to the body & low kick are exact copies of their knockdown originals - with the added jab to the face.

5bmyp_zps670943f5.gif



But Dutch kickboxing & Kyokushin Karate deviated a long time ago and they have their own unique subset of combos & among other things.
Click to expand...

There has certainly been spectacular Kyokushin fights. But if you don't train defence against punches to the face, it's going to be very difficult. I am told their sparring nowdays is very much competition oriented, although some do incorporate face punches.
 
Jukai said:
No, you didn't, you told me you couldn't find it and left the thread
Click to expand...

It was Muay Thai, not Jujitsu. The BJJ quote is in the thread. You are not to be taken seriously for believing a boxer, including Mike Tyson, would last against a top level Muay Thai fighter. You do realise that Tyson, even in his prime, had several decision victories over guys like Mitch Green and Tony Tucker? These are not exactly all time greats (not compared to Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and the rest) and he failed to knock them out even in Boxing. So Tyson and KO is far from certain even in Boxing, and that's what he needs before being kicked down by low kicks.

Huge part of Tyson was intimidation and if you could weather the storm in the beginning, he would be tamed and controlled. A Muay Thai fighter would cripple him.
 
I'm sorry--- you blatantly lied about Tyson being scared of Muay Thai fighters, not BJJ fighters. My fault.
 
spacetime said:
It was Muay Thai, not Jujitsu. The BJJ quote is in the thread. You are not to be taken seriously for believing a boxer, including Mike Tyson, would last against a top level Muay Thai fighter. You do realise that Tyson, even in his prime, had several decision victories over guys like Mitch Green and Tony Tucker? These are not exactly all time greats (not compared to Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and the rest) and he failed to knock them out even in Boxing. So Tyson and KO is far from certain even in Boxing, and that's what he needs before being kicked down by low kicks.

Huge part of Tyson was intimidation and if you could weather the storm in the beginning, he would be tamed and controlled. A Muay Thai fighter would cripple him.
Click to expand...

Obviously a MT fighter should wina MT fighter that's why he's a MT fighter but Mitch Green held on for dear life 10 rounds long and Tony Tucker while not a legend is extremely underrated and I hate how he gets brought up to say Tyson never fought anyone good Tony Tucker was a very good boxer with a very good chin Lennox lewis couldn't finish a worse version of Tucker either and had just as much trouble as Tyson had
 
PivotPunch said:
Obviously a MT fighter should wina MT fighter that's why he's a MT fighter but Mitch Green held on for dear life 10 rounds long and Tony Tucker while not a legend is extremely underrated and I hate how he gets brought up to say Tyson never fought anyone good Tony Tucker was a very good boxer with a very good chin Lennox lewis couldn't finish a worse version of Tucker either and had just as much trouble as Tyson had
Click to expand...

Tyson did not accomplish much at all against Tucker and Tuckers performance was solid, nothing more nothing less. This is clear proof that Tysons fear factor was a overrated when up against solid but NOT all time great opposition who controlled him. As much as I love Tysons fighting style, he is probably not at the level of Lewis or Holyfield and would have lost even in his prime to those guys, IF they kept cool and could control him the first round or two. Then use their superior reach and frustrate a tiring Tyson, round after round. It's a shame we never saw it happen when Tyson was at his best.
 
spacetime said:
Tyson did not accomplish much at all against Tucker and Tuckers performance was solid, nothing more nothing less. This is clear proof that Tysons fear factor was a overrated when up against solid but NOT all time great opposition who controlled him. As much as I love Tysons fighting style, he is probably not at the level of Lewis or Holyfield and would have lost even in his prime to those guys, IF they kept cool and could control him the first round or two. Then use their superior reach and frustrate a tiring Tyson, round after round. It's a shame we never saw it happen when Tyson was at his best.
Click to expand...


I think Lewis beats even a prime Tyson. I don't see how Holyfield does though. A prime tyson who was much more technical then the one Holyfield fought and had a trainer in his corner to whom he actually listened and a good like Rooney on top of that is too much for Holyfield.

And had the fight happened earlier especially even though Holyfield wasn't in his prime either when he fought Tyson a prime Holyfield or jsut a younegr Holyfield exchanged with everyone and got hurt badly by Bert Cooper tyson would have put him to sleep.

And Holyfield didn't use reach to win either he did the opposite he got close to Tyson and smothered his punches and clinched a lot and pushed Tyson back
 
A fighter will always look invincible against inferior opposition, where he has free room to display his talents. Strong opposition makes you look much worse than you really are, because they simply don't allow your strong points. That's why we can't base Tysons greatness on all those wonderful first round knockouts. It's how he fared against <resisting> opposition that is of interest. He did beat an ageing Holmes and is certainly not counted out in any match up, but I cannot say that he is the greatest of all time. Mike Tyson looked very human against Tucker. Not bad, but not top 3 all time either...

And when someone is not an all time great, who Tysons takes seriously, yet can't dominate, then I logically deduce that prime Tyson would struggle against Holyfield and Lewis, who are on another planet than Tucker.
 
spacetime said:
A fighter will always look invincible against inferior opposition, where he has free room to display his talents. Strong opposition makes you look much worse than you really are, because they simply don't allow your strong points. That's why we can't base Tysons greatness on all those wonderful first round knockouts. It's how he fared against <resisting> opposition that is of interest. He did beat an ageing Holmes and is certainly not counted out in any match up, but I cannot say that he is the greatest of all time. Mike Tyson looked very human against Tucker. Not bad, but not top 3 all time either...

And when someone is not an all time great, who Tysons takes seriously, yet can't dominate, then I logically deduce that prime Tyson would struggle against Holyfield and Lewis, who are on another planet than Tucker.
Click to expand...

Styles make fights and I can't see how Holyfield beats a prime Tyson especially not a young and reckless Holyfield.

I don't think anyone who isn't a complete idiot claims Tyson is top 3 of all time. And Lewis struggled with Tucker himself allthough not prime Lewis it wasn't prime Tucker either and tbf Tucker hurt his hand vs Tyson.

But a very much prime Lewis struggled with Mavrovic allthough it's hard to say how good or bad Mavrovic was because Lewis was the only elite guy he ever fought.
Lewis also had a close fight with Ray Mercer that some even think Mercer won and Tucker might very well beat Mercer.

I think Lewis beats prime Tyson but you can play that game with every boxer
 
Tyson was a shadow of himself in speed starting with the Douglas fight. I don't think only an idiot would concider him top 3 all time great when at his peak. We simply don't know. He did not train properly in the 90s.
 
spacetime said:
Tyson was a shadow of himself in speed starting with the Douglas fight. I don't think only an idiot would concider him top 3 all time great when at his peak. We simply don't know. He did not train properly in the 90s.
Click to expand...

I don't get how he ranks differently at different times all time lists are mostly based on resumees not h2h ability.

And you can't really make an ATG list only based on h2h ability because styles make fights and I can't think of a single boxer who would beat every boxer at his weight who ever lived maybe Tyson was top 3 but you yourself think he would lose to Holyfield and Lewis and I even agree with Lewis among all the thousands of HWs in the history of boxing there surely have to be at least 3 who match up well with even prime Tyson and beat him

I think his speed was ok he just declined technically even with the first fight without Rooney and didn't train properly on top of not having a corner he listened to and partying with coke and booze the nights before fights.
His timing was off, his distance was off he looked a bit sluggish and Douglas looked really good.

if you are a 5'10 HW and suddenly abandon more and more of your skills, can't find your distance and can't find your timing offensively and defensively you're pretty fucked especially if you are up against a skilled 6'4 HW with handspeed and 84inch or so reach.
 
My point is that Tyson aged quickly. Speed, timing everything. Tyson relied on this more than anyone, since he was much smaller than most of his opponents.
 
spacetime said:
My point is that Tyson aged quickly. Speed, timing everything. Tyson relied on this more than anyone, since he was much smaller than most of his opponents.
Click to expand...

yeah I agree but fighters with his style historically have short careers Frazier, Marciano and others all had short careers.
He also believed sparring should be as hard as fighting he sparred 100% everytime that's not something that makes for long careers.

I believe though regardless that he would have had a few more years at that level and possible even some room for further imrpovement had he stayed with Rooney, been disciplined and not partied the way he did.

he was 24 when he beat Spinks in his most impressive performance no way he should have started to decline at 24 even if he hadn't improved further and considering how he looked vs Spinks he very well might had improved a little bit more
 
He could have been close to his prime against Holyfield too. But he did not train the same. Any analysis of Tysons fighting post prison time is largely irrelevant. That is unfortunate.
 
Last edited:
Tyson improved up to the Spinks fight, looked off vs Bruno and steadily declined each fight until he hit rock bottom vs Douglas after that he still didn't look the Tyson of old but was a bit more motivated and beat Ruddock, then he went to jail and was technically further diminished and further declined with each fight and then after the rematch with Holyfield he really went to shit like everything his speed his technique everything dropped.

He needed 6 rounds to dispose of human punching bag Brian Nielson that was just bad. In his fight after Lewis he was lighte rand in better shape than for the actual lewis fight and trained with Roach and was the lightest in years but what happened afterwards vs Williams and vs McBride is something most wish never happened.

And the bad thing is HOW he lost those fights he had Williams hurt in th first but hurt his knee and just stayed down because he didn't care anyway and he apparently tried to get back to some of his old skills vs McBride and purposely boxed on the outside to use McBride as practise and not to blast him out in 30 seconds but when McBride started to rough Tyson up because he couldn't outbox a 5'10 far past it legend from the outside Tyson had his final "fuck it moment".


The Williams fight was also especially shitty because had he won then we would have seen Vitali Klitschko vs tyson yes an absolutely past it Tyson but just for fantasy matchup purposes it would have been interesting to see how they match up stylistically and how Tyson deals with vitali's size
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,975
Messages
55,458,479
Members
174,787
Latest member
Freddie556

Share this page

Back
Top