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Well, you’ve got to start somewhere and this is my first thread. I wanted to see if I could learn anything more about the “Dutch style”. Now I know how much opinions vary on the “Dutch style”, some people refer to it as the Dutch style of Muay Thai and many Muay Thai purists hesitate to call it Muay Thai at all. Professional fighters such as Bas Rutten have referred to the style of fighting as Thai Boxing (Rutten was a Kyokushin Karateka originally) although there are many people who don’t agree at all.
I understand that what people consider to be the “Dutch style” is in fact very similar to Japanese kickboxing that stemmed from fighting styles such as Kyokushin and Seidokaikan karate but with influence from Muay Thai.
So far I’ve been of the school of thought that there is no “Dutch style” and instead it is really the style of the gym. Seeing as different gyms seem to have different ways of fighting, some leaning more towards Muay Thai, others leaning more towards karate. For example Thom Harinck says in this fascinating interview that he considers the Chakuriki way of fighting to be boxing and karate kicks but with influences from Muay Thai:
[YT]Wig2NyIHIgQ[/YT]
Conversely, Ramon Dekkers (arguably the most famous example of “the Dutch style” has what appears to me to be a very Thai style kick, however I notice that he doesn’t come up onto his toe when he throws his roundhouse kick and he instead keeps his foot flat. Staying flat on the foot while kicking is something that I have always associated with Kyokushin.
Compare Dekkers to Sakmongkol and Jongsanan throw their kicks while they record motion capture for this independent Muay Thai game (which will probably never be released at this rate):
[YT]m0AH9f8-Gyk[/YT]
[YT]HuAEVAJGo4g[/YT]
And compare Dekkers style with this Kyokushin Karateka:
[YT]mgsPmtK86Tw[/YT]
Dekkers kick seems to be a hybrid of the two, using a largely Muay Thai technique while staying flat on the foot like in Kyokushin. I realise however that the Kyokushin way of kicking is in itself similar to Muay Thai and it is hard to really name a technique one or the other since everyone throws them differently.
The Dutch are also known for their punching power and while the dutch (and nak muays) use a technique for punching that is more or less the same as western boxing, I am very interested in the way they string together combinations. The legendary combo of jab, cross, left hook, right low kick is a staple of the dutch style. However when I look at the dutch fight it seems to me as though they have taken a Kyokushin combo and replaced the karate punching technique with boxing technique as kickboxing allows for punches to the head. While the technique has changed the influence seems to come from Kyokushin, Seidokaikan and Japanese Kickboxing as opposed to Muay Thai as very few Nak Muays string together combinations like that, even fighters such as Samart Payakaroon who was in fact a professional boxer (and a champion at that) didn’t really string combinations together this way.
Before I move on to the last part of my post, I wanted to give you an idea of what dutch kickboxing is to me at the moment:
While Andy Ristie is a fighter who combines traditional muay thai and boxing incredibly well in my opinion, I don’t think he is a good example of a Dutch fighter. Ristie is a good example of a great striker but much like people like Semmy Schilt I don’t think he fits the mould of what a Dutch fighter would typically be. When I think of dutch fighters I do think of people like Ramon Dekkers and Rob Kaman, heavy low kicks and hard punches. I would also be willing to argue (like I touched on before) that there is no true dutch style, just the style of the gyms.
Every martial artist will have their own preferred techniques and ways of fighting, I believe that the term martial artist should mean something. I think that a martial artist creates their own art in a way, maybe not in any formal sense or a marketing sense but takes what they like from everything around them that they can find to see what works and what doesn’t. It’s thinking like this that has created most fighting styles and even if you are a very traditional practitioner of your own style I still believe you are making your own style in a sense of your own preferences.
Now the title of this thread may have lied a little bit. I don’t just want to know about the Kyokushin influences of Dutch kickboxing, I also want to know what you guys can spot from Japanese kickboxing, Seidokaikan, Muay Thai (even though I practise Muay Thai myself there’s always going to be someone who notices something that I do not).
So over to you guys. I’m really curious to know what you guys think. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable Kyokushin practitioners as well as Muay Thai practitioners and I’d love to know what influences you see. In particular I’d like to learn about:
Combinations – where do you think they’ve come from and how they compare to the other fighting styles.
Footwork – how do you think it compares?
All kicking techniques in particular I do want to know about the technique of the low kick and high kick of each discipline and how the technique differs between each style.
Clinching and knee technique
Training drills – This one may be difficult but I’d love to know how the dutch fighters train compare to the Japanese, karate etc.
Also any historical knowledge you can pull out would be greatly appreciated.
Also I found this a while back and I think it could be useful to analysing low kicks:
[YT]v18h5TAXjsY[/YT]
I’m planning to gather all of my findings and formulate it into an essay to improve my understanding and hopefully educate other people too!
Thank you!
I understand that what people consider to be the “Dutch style” is in fact very similar to Japanese kickboxing that stemmed from fighting styles such as Kyokushin and Seidokaikan karate but with influence from Muay Thai.
So far I’ve been of the school of thought that there is no “Dutch style” and instead it is really the style of the gym. Seeing as different gyms seem to have different ways of fighting, some leaning more towards Muay Thai, others leaning more towards karate. For example Thom Harinck says in this fascinating interview that he considers the Chakuriki way of fighting to be boxing and karate kicks but with influences from Muay Thai:
[YT]Wig2NyIHIgQ[/YT]
Conversely, Ramon Dekkers (arguably the most famous example of “the Dutch style” has what appears to me to be a very Thai style kick, however I notice that he doesn’t come up onto his toe when he throws his roundhouse kick and he instead keeps his foot flat. Staying flat on the foot while kicking is something that I have always associated with Kyokushin.
Compare Dekkers to Sakmongkol and Jongsanan throw their kicks while they record motion capture for this independent Muay Thai game (which will probably never be released at this rate):
[YT]m0AH9f8-Gyk[/YT]
[YT]HuAEVAJGo4g[/YT]
And compare Dekkers style with this Kyokushin Karateka:
[YT]mgsPmtK86Tw[/YT]
Dekkers kick seems to be a hybrid of the two, using a largely Muay Thai technique while staying flat on the foot like in Kyokushin. I realise however that the Kyokushin way of kicking is in itself similar to Muay Thai and it is hard to really name a technique one or the other since everyone throws them differently.
The Dutch are also known for their punching power and while the dutch (and nak muays) use a technique for punching that is more or less the same as western boxing, I am very interested in the way they string together combinations. The legendary combo of jab, cross, left hook, right low kick is a staple of the dutch style. However when I look at the dutch fight it seems to me as though they have taken a Kyokushin combo and replaced the karate punching technique with boxing technique as kickboxing allows for punches to the head. While the technique has changed the influence seems to come from Kyokushin, Seidokaikan and Japanese Kickboxing as opposed to Muay Thai as very few Nak Muays string together combinations like that, even fighters such as Samart Payakaroon who was in fact a professional boxer (and a champion at that) didn’t really string combinations together this way.
Before I move on to the last part of my post, I wanted to give you an idea of what dutch kickboxing is to me at the moment:
While Andy Ristie is a fighter who combines traditional muay thai and boxing incredibly well in my opinion, I don’t think he is a good example of a Dutch fighter. Ristie is a good example of a great striker but much like people like Semmy Schilt I don’t think he fits the mould of what a Dutch fighter would typically be. When I think of dutch fighters I do think of people like Ramon Dekkers and Rob Kaman, heavy low kicks and hard punches. I would also be willing to argue (like I touched on before) that there is no true dutch style, just the style of the gyms.
Every martial artist will have their own preferred techniques and ways of fighting, I believe that the term martial artist should mean something. I think that a martial artist creates their own art in a way, maybe not in any formal sense or a marketing sense but takes what they like from everything around them that they can find to see what works and what doesn’t. It’s thinking like this that has created most fighting styles and even if you are a very traditional practitioner of your own style I still believe you are making your own style in a sense of your own preferences.
Now the title of this thread may have lied a little bit. I don’t just want to know about the Kyokushin influences of Dutch kickboxing, I also want to know what you guys can spot from Japanese kickboxing, Seidokaikan, Muay Thai (even though I practise Muay Thai myself there’s always going to be someone who notices something that I do not).
So over to you guys. I’m really curious to know what you guys think. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable Kyokushin practitioners as well as Muay Thai practitioners and I’d love to know what influences you see. In particular I’d like to learn about:
Combinations – where do you think they’ve come from and how they compare to the other fighting styles.
Footwork – how do you think it compares?
All kicking techniques in particular I do want to know about the technique of the low kick and high kick of each discipline and how the technique differs between each style.
Clinching and knee technique
Training drills – This one may be difficult but I’d love to know how the dutch fighters train compare to the Japanese, karate etc.
Also any historical knowledge you can pull out would be greatly appreciated.
Also I found this a while back and I think it could be useful to analysing low kicks:
[YT]v18h5TAXjsY[/YT]
I’m planning to gather all of my findings and formulate it into an essay to improve my understanding and hopefully educate other people too!
Thank you!
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