By coincidence, I managed to get into a discussion with Jubin (who has been posting on this thead) about the exact same topic on YouTube.
So I've copied and pasted the discussion below. It did start off a little bit like an argument but we ended up talking properly about it, and I think some of the techniques that are mentioned in the post will be worth mentioning.
I'll have a cliffnotes version in the next comment:
clipdrift2 months agoHighlighted comment
Dutch muay thai is a hybrid of boxing and muay thai. what infuences did karate take? plus Ramon dekkers the most famous dutch kickboxer never even did karate
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Jimz891 month ago
The guys who pioneered dutch style kickboxing trained in japan and came from a karate background, even today lots of schools still use the word osu even though it's japanase and comes from karate
clipdrift1 month ago
The thing is i Read that jan plas (the biggest pioneer) was a karate fighter who thought muay thai to the dutch. He himself was a Karate fighter but he studied muay thai and thought it. So i dont Know if there was an influence from that alone since he did Not incorparate karate in it. I checked jan plas gym btw and its a muay Thai gym today
clipdrift1 month ago
Look at modern dutch muay thai fighters like nieky holzken or robin van roosmalen. They all started in muay thai and dont use any karate techniques. And what about ramon dekkers? He never did anything else but muay thai. and i have never seen a gym other than a karate gym use the word osu. not even in the netherlands
Andy's Mad House2 days ago
you're wrong mate, Robin Van Roosmalen uses plenty of karate gyms, Rico Verhoeven is a kyokushin black belt, Nieky Holzken blends karate style combinations
clipdrift1 day ago
No he doesnt. Don't try to give karate credit where it's not true. And next time bring some arguments with you. Low kick combinations are not exclusive to karate. And again they trained only Muay Thai
Andy's Mad House14 hours ago
Yes he does, although I didn't mean to say karate gyms, I meant to say "moves". Also Nieky Holzken DOES blend karate style combinations. In fact, I didn't say low kick combinations, i said combinations in general. Go on the sherdog thread: Kyokushin Influences in Dutch Kickboxing. You'll see that karate had more influence on dutch kixcboxing than muay thai did, and there are numerous people that know more about the history of dutch kb than either of us
clipdrift14 hours ago
+Andy's Mad House then why does every muay thai gym offer kickboxing classes? i already did. check it. karate fans say there is heavy influence, others say there isnt one whatsoever. Others say that it is basically muay thai with a focus on hands. which isnt so dumb because ramon dekkers pretty much only trained muay thai in thailand. and again alot of people call it "dutch muay thai" for a reason. so i asked a few old dutch kickboxers that could see the revolution. they told me that back in the day alot of them would do karate but when they started boxing more it faded away. now its alot more thai style. a guy on sherdog told me the so called "typical" karate combinations and i asked my trainer who trained in thailand for years and is multiple european champion. he told me that these combos arent uncommon in muay thai at all.
Andy's Mad House13 hours ago
Well, considering I made that thread and have trained in Holland (Mejiro), I'd like to think I'm knowledgeable enough. Firstly you're wrong on every muay thai gym offering kickboxing classes, I'm in London and the two main muay thai gyms are Diesel and KO, Diesel do not offer kickboxing classes, and KO Muay Thai stopped doing K1 kickboxing. You're also wrong, Ramon Dekkers did not train exclusively in Thailand, he DID train in Thailand but most of his training was at Golden Glory under Cor Hemmers. Dutch Muay Thai is a VERY outdated phrase that not many people use. You're also not factoring in gym differences. I train in muay thai under a thai coach (look up Team Kru Thai, London), but he favours boxing based combinations and body kicks. Lucien Carbin, the dutch trainer, considers his style a blend of kyokushin and muay thai, because he drew more specific influence from the clinch of muay thai. Jan Plas/Cor Hemmers had more to do with kyokushin and goju ryu karate schools and guys like Toshi Fujiwara. There is a VERY big influence on dutch kickboxing from Karate (mainly kyokushin) and that is just a historical fact, you can read about in books published by dutch kickboxers and trainers.It can be felt in guys like Semmy Schilt, Ernesto Hoost and pretty much any major dutch kickboxer outside of Lucien Carbin's tutilage. I don't know why you seem to have such a thing against Karate when it's literally historical fact, and it's history that has been recorded.
http://www.sampamma.com/lucien-carbin-dutch-style-muay-thai/ http://goldenglorypattaya.com/?page_id=856 The influence of karate and japanese kickboxing is recorded fact mate. I'm neither dutch nor a karateka and I can see that, so I don't know what your issue is
Even the technique of the kick is karate esque. I can't see the point in discussing with you if you can't recognise what is recorded history.
clipdrift13 hours ago
good points iam not gonna lie
iam gonna look at the article later. maybe i havent brought my point across correctly. i mean the influence of of karate in MODERN dutch kickboxing. iam well aware of the fact that it has influences in its developement with names like jan plas and mejiro gym etc. but the thing is that i cant see in in modern dutch kickboxers. except of course fighters like semmy schilt or davit kiria (he isnt dutch though XD ) why? because they actually use typical karate attacks that are nowhere found in muay thai u know? thought i share this:
https://www.quora.com/How-similar-is-Muay-Thai-to-Dutch-kickboxing please check out the comment from "chris price" he makes some interesting points
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Andy's Mad House12 hours ago
I've seen this
someone linked it on my sherdog thread, although I do recall some of the points he made being corrected in posts on the thread, but I don't wanna say too much because I can't quite remember The reason I would say the influence is still there is because modern dutch kb doesn't really resemble muay thai at all to the educated eye. While I'd imagine my dad wouldn't be able to tell the difference, Muay Thai is built on teep kicks, body kicks and technical boxing (and of course the clinch). Dutch kickboxing is still largely built on punch combinations (but not so much actual boxing) and low kicks. And while kyokushin karate does teach you the spin kicks and high kicks, you'll find that most competitors work with the same punch-kick combos that dutch fighters use, with the main change being that the dutch mix up to the head more (because of the japanese kickboxing influence). Also, you've got to keep in mind that spinning kicks ARE a thing in muay thai, it's a myth that they're not. The reason they don't get used much isn't that they're not taught them, it's because they prefer to focus on simpler techniques for the sake of scoring. Which is why it's rare to see nak muays throw the high kick to wheel kick combos that Andy Souwer would use. I think a lot of this misconception comes from people not really watching muay thai in Thailand. For a long time people have said that muay thai is all about the low kicks, but low kicks are rare in muay thai and don't actually score at all in a fight unless they succeed in buckling the leg of an opponent. Conversely low kicks are VERY popular in japanese kickboxing and knockdown karate, where the rulset is entirely different. Another misconception is that the dutch have better boxing, that's not REALLY true. The dutch are typically volume punchers but largely don't probe with a jab and measure range and find angles like what Thai's do. While Thai's certainly aren't known for their punch they use things like the jab as a range finder and straight punchers far more than the dutch do. Say with the more recent kickboxers, when you look at a guy like Nieky Holzken, he brings some scientific boxing, with rhythm breaks that you'd see in boxing, but he also has kicking combinations that you don't very often see outside of karate.They way he'll throw a punch, follows by an inside low kick, then another punch, outside low kick. That's very unusual in muay thai because in a muay thai fight none of those techniques would have scored at all. Which is why people that are invested in karate would describe that as more of a karate style combination, because in muay thai unless you hurt your opponent with that combination, you may have wasted your time. Or you'll get Rico Verhoeven who as I mentioned before is a kyokushin black belt under his father, and while he fights based on his range, you can't really remove that karate experience from him. Even if he isn't throwing many spin kicks or other more stereotypical karate techniques, the karate is still there, because that's where he learned to kick from the beginning, and its where he got the subtleties of his technique. I do kind of get where you're coming from, but I think that if you watch a lot of stadium muay thai, you sort of notice just how different the fighters from holland really are. There's a world of difference between a fighter like Pakorn or Sittichai and fighters like Robin Van Roosmalen.
clipdrift12 hours ago
that was me on your thread XD and in your thread i misstyped "dutch muay thai" with "dutch kickboxing" which was dumb and no one got my point because of my stupid mistake XDXDXD you sure know what you are talking about. not many people know that muay thai actually does has spinning shit and you are also right about the low kicks not scoring in traditional rules. But theres is one thing that confuses me: is there any difference in the Kickboxing style of the dutch guys compared to non-dutch, non-thai muay thai fighters? for example lets compare joe schilling, joseph valtelini,Artem Levin or my coach ulli schick which all trained either in thailand and/or in their homeland but do not have a traditional thai style (atleast under glory rules). My question is if you see any differences because they look kinda similar to me
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Andy's Mad House11 hours ago
I think that's kind of a difficult question because the history of kickboxing in those countries is kind of a mess. Say for example in the UK, muay thai was brought to the UK by a fella that didn't even really know muay thai so much as TKD with some small muay thai knowledge. Artem Levin, I honestly have no idea with. The former soviet union is known for its methodical approach to boxing and judo, but I have no clue about its kickboxing. When it comes to say Joe Schilling, I tend to find that American Muay Thai fighters kind of fight more like sloppy thais. Joe Schilling doesn't do an awful lot different from thai fighters, but he does it all quite sloppily and/or wild compared to them. I feel similarly about Kevin Ross, although I do feel Ross is the better technician. When it comes to Joe Valtelini I know that he has a karate/tkd background as well as a muay thai background but I think he probably favours more dutch techniques just because its what worked for him. I think a lot of the time it depends on what the coach will encourage as well. I think that the dutch style is kind of a myth in itself, because what happens as Vos Gym is very different Chakuriki for example. I think its also in the physical technique as well that creates the difference, I found that guys like Shick (to use your example) and Schilling often don't have that clean technique that you come to expect, they can certainly fight but its those little differences in economy of motion, excess movement, being fidgety and stuff like that, which will physically make their fight look different to say Joe Valtellini who has very clean technique. It won't always necessarily make a difference in the fight, what lands lands. But I think when you watch it, there's usually a lot cleaner technique from dutch and thai fighters. That's only my observational opinion though, I can't really claim it as fact
clipdrift8 hours ago
good points. as far as i know valtelini did have a tdk backround. i might have to disagree with you in regards to rico and his kyokushin backround. even though he definetely is a blackbelt he simply does not use any of it. a blackbelt who uses karate stuff would be for example schilt, so i am not really sure if ricos previous karate backround plays any role in his current fighting style whatsoever
Andy's Mad House2 hours ago
again, not true:
just because you're not using it in an obvious way, or using techniques that are are shared by other martial arts, does not mean you're not using kyokushin.
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/why-does-nobody-care-about-rico-verhoeven Jack Slack, if you didn't already know is the best striking analyst around today and he talks about some of Rico's techniques including mae geri and uchimatageri that are from kyokushin that he uses to great effect in nearly all of his fights. The Carbin shift he talks about is also something that came from Lucien Carbin's kyokushin background. Rico uses his kyokushin a LOT, just because he uses techniques that are shared by other martial arts, does not mean he's using those martial arts instead of his base of kyokushin. If you learned your kicks from karate and you use karate technique on your kicks, then you're using karate in your fights. It doesn't matter if it doesn't look like your doing karate in the ring, because Semmy Schilt didn't look like he was using karate in the ring, but we know he was. I think the only reason you're accepting Schilt's karate and not Rico's is because Schilt's karate background is a widely known fact as opposed to more obscure knowledge
clipdrift55 minutes ago
nice article. i do get your point. the situation kinda reminds me of when edson barboza knocked someone down with a wheel kick. Barboza trained Taekwondo and muay thai. was it a taekwondo kick or a muay thai kick now? because he could have learned it from both martial arts
