Kyokushin Influences in Dutch Kickboxing

[AndyMaBobs]

Well, you’ve got to start somewhere and this is my first thread. I wanted to see if I could learn anything more about the “Dutch style”. Now I know how much opinions vary on the “Dutch style”, some people refer to it as the Dutch style of Muay Thai and many Muay Thai purists hesitate to call it Muay Thai at all. Professional fighters such as Bas Rutten have referred to the style of fighting as Thai Boxing (Rutten was a Kyokushin Karateka originally) although there are many people who don’t agree at all.

I understand that what people consider to be the “Dutch style” is in fact very similar to Japanese kickboxing that stemmed from fighting styles such as Kyokushin and Seidokaikan karate but with influence from Muay Thai.

So far I’ve been of the school of thought that there is no “Dutch style” and instead it is really the style of the gym. Seeing as different gyms seem to have different ways of fighting, some leaning more towards Muay Thai, others leaning more towards karate. For example Thom Harinck says in this fascinating interview that he considers the Chakuriki way of fighting to be boxing and karate kicks but with influences from Muay Thai:

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Conversely, Ramon Dekkers (arguably the most famous example of “the Dutch style&#8221 has what appears to me to be a very Thai style kick, however I notice that he doesn’t come up onto his toe when he throws his roundhouse kick and he instead keeps his foot flat. Staying flat on the foot while kicking is something that I have always associated with Kyokushin.

Compare Dekkers to Sakmongkol and Jongsanan throw their kicks while they record motion capture for this independent Muay Thai game (which will probably never be released at this rate):

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And compare Dekkers style with this Kyokushin Karateka:

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Dekkers kick seems to be a hybrid of the two, using a largely Muay Thai technique while staying flat on the foot like in Kyokushin. I realise however that the Kyokushin way of kicking is in itself similar to Muay Thai and it is hard to really name a technique one or the other since everyone throws them differently.

The Dutch are also known for their punching power and while the dutch (and nak muays) use a technique for punching that is more or less the same as western boxing, I am very interested in the way they string together combinations. The legendary combo of jab, cross, left hook, right low kick is a staple of the dutch style. However when I look at the dutch fight it seems to me as though they have taken a Kyokushin combo and replaced the karate punching technique with boxing technique as kickboxing allows for punches to the head. While the technique has changed the influence seems to come from Kyokushin, Seidokaikan and Japanese Kickboxing as opposed to Muay Thai as very few Nak Muays string together combinations like that, even fighters such as Samart Payakaroon who was in fact a professional boxer (and a champion at that) didn’t really string combinations together this way.


Before I move on to the last part of my post, I wanted to give you an idea of what dutch kickboxing is to me at the moment:

While Andy Ristie is a fighter who combines traditional muay thai and boxing incredibly well in my opinion, I don’t think he is a good example of a Dutch fighter. Ristie is a good example of a great striker but much like people like Semmy Schilt I don’t think he fits the mould of what a Dutch fighter would typically be. When I think of dutch fighters I do think of people like Ramon Dekkers and Rob Kaman, heavy low kicks and hard punches. I would also be willing to argue (like I touched on before) that there is no true dutch style, just the style of the gyms.

Every martial artist will have their own preferred techniques and ways of fighting, I believe that the term martial artist should mean something. I think that a martial artist creates their own art in a way, maybe not in any formal sense or a marketing sense but takes what they like from everything around them that they can find to see what works and what doesn’t. It’s thinking like this that has created most fighting styles and even if you are a very traditional practitioner of your own style I still believe you are making your own style in a sense of your own preferences.


Now the title of this thread may have lied a little bit. I don’t just want to know about the Kyokushin influences of Dutch kickboxing, I also want to know what you guys can spot from Japanese kickboxing, Seidokaikan, Muay Thai (even though I practise Muay Thai myself there’s always going to be someone who notices something that I do not).

So over to you guys. I’m really curious to know what you guys think. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable Kyokushin practitioners as well as Muay Thai practitioners and I’d love to know what influences you see. In particular I’d like to learn about:

Combinations – where do you think they’ve come from and how they compare to the other fighting styles.
Footwork – how do you think it compares?
All kicking techniques in particular I do want to know about the technique of the low kick and high kick of each discipline and how the technique differs between each style.
Clinching and knee technique
Training drills – This one may be difficult but I’d love to know how the dutch fighters train compare to the Japanese, karate etc.

Also any historical knowledge you can pull out would be greatly appreciated.


Also I found this a while back and I think it could be useful to analysing low kicks:
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I’m planning to gather all of my findings and formulate it into an essay to improve my understanding and hopefully educate other people too!

Thank you!

 

[BareKnucklez**]

Its not even the style of the gym, its the style of the fighter. Every fighter has a different style and some fighters find some techniques more useful than others.

 

[kickingtime]

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[NidNoi]

Nevertheless Kyokushin has/uses spinning kick despite flat foot. LOL

 

[kickingtime]

Nevertheless Kyokushin has/uses spinning kick despite flat foot. LOL

,
does that hurt the knee?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

,
does that hurt the knee?

Thanks for sharing that instructional. That's going into my archive for sure

I can't speak for everyone but I've always stayed flat on my foot when doing a spinning back kick and spinning hook kick and I've never had any problem with my knees, but I think its because my technique is done more via stepping into the right position rather than throwing myself into it. The Ye Olde Joe Rogan technique. :icon_twis

-EDIT- I train in Muay Thai but I've picked up some of the other kicks from different styles because it can be tricky to learn techniques like that in a muay thai gym.

 

[Harukaze]

,
does that hurt the knee?

Depends. Like AndyMaBobs said, foot position matters a lot, as does your general physiology. If your ligaments are tight and your dynamic stabilizers (i.e. muscles) are weak, and you throw the kick in such a way that your knee is torquing to a much greater degree than your foot, then yes, there is the potential for a knee injury. Another important consideration is your hip positioning; essentially, if your foot and hip on the standing leg are in a high-enough degree of external rotation prior to setting your foot for the kick, and the dynamic stabilizers of your knee are doing their job properly, there theoretically isn't too much strain on the knee at all, generally speaking.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It sounds pretty obvious to say, but the idea of good kicking technique is to be able to strike with power without damaging your joints, so I'd like to think that the methods safe, but yeah it really does depend, I haven't have any real problems with my knees throwing turning kicks but what may be right for some might not be for others.

When I throw a turning side kick (I prefer this term for the spinning back kick) I turn, bring my knee up and then straighten my leg and body, but I don't twist my knee so much as I just turn around. I hope that helps! Harukaze is right!

 

[Azam]

LOL just been sitting here for like 10mins - trying to think of how to put in everything that needs to be said (since it's very long).

For the history of Dutch kickboxing - which has been discussed to death on this forum and the MT & kickboxing forum (of which I and many here have contributed) - try looking at the older threads on the topic using the search function. You'll be able to see the varying opinions on the topic and get a better idea on the general development of Dutch kickboxing.


But a short/brief description is; Dutch Kickboxing came out of the Mejiro style of kickboxing - that was developed by Kenji Kurosaki, a karateka (and Judoka) who trained with Masutatsu Oyama at Gogen Yamaguchi's Goju ryu dojo and was there during the development/growth of Kyokushin Karate by Oyama's side.

As Kyokushin became more knockdown orientated because of it's popularity, Kurosaki felt that Kyokushin was going in the wrong direction and that becoming knockdown orientated would take away from the original Kyokushin developed before the advent of knockdown.

So Kenji Kurosaki left KK and formed his own style Mejiro - which was a blend of mainly Kyokushin/Goju with boxing (and slight MT influences). A good friend of Kenji Kurosaki's was a karateka/judoka from the Netherlands called Jon Bluming (they met at Oyama's dojo & trained together - becoming very good friends) - who is probably the pioneer of MMA in Europe & indirectly the man who helped create the Dutch kickboxing style.

He sent his students like Jan Plas etc etc to Kurosaki's Mejiro dojo - to learn Kurosaki's fighting style, they brought it back to Holland & developed it slightly/gradually over the years, as they competed more on the international stage & in MT in Thailand. So in essence if anyone should be considered the Godfather of Dutch kickboxing it is probably Kenji Kurosaki - because he gave the Dutch the blueprints to their style (much of his style can be seen still in the way the Dutch guys fight).

Among Kenji Kurosaki's students was Toshio Fujiwara - the first foreigner in MT history to win a stadium title (Rajadamnern) at the highly competitive lightweight class, in the 70's -- about the time, the Dutch I think came to learn from Kurosaki.

This is a highlight of the legendary fighter:






I'll try add some more tomorrow lol - I'm very sleepy.

 

[shinkyoku]

Most Kyokushin guys may not rise as high on the ball of their foot as some MT guys when kicking, but they do not necessarily plant their heel either.
Actually I think it is more a personal thing than a style thing.

Some styles of karate pivot on their heel instead of on the ball of the foot. I find that weird.

(BTW, regarding the clip of Sakmonkol. You do know that he trains a style kempo and a kyokushin offshoot on the side? -or atleast he did while still living in Thailand. He has also competed under kyokushin rules, and actually took a title under knockdown karate rules in a minor organization. His style is not "pure" MT.)

 

[kickingtime]

sorry to derail the thread but i can feel my hip bones popping when I side kick.

 

[Harukaze]

Most Kyokushin guys may not rise as high on the ball of their foot as some MT guys when kicking, but they do not necessarily plant their heel either.
Actually I think it is more a personal thing than a style thing.

Some styles of karate pivot on their heel instead of on the ball of the foot. I find that weird.

(BTW, regarding the clip of Sakmonkol. You do know that he trains a style kempo and a kyokushin offshoot on the side? -or atleast he did while still living in Thailand. He has also competed under kyokushin rules, and actually took a title under knockdown karate rules in a minor organization. His style is not "pure" MT.)

Noooo, Sakmongkol is pure Muay Thai through-and-through. He didn't join the WKO and do knockdown until many years after he retired from pro Muay Thai. He's actually the chief Muay Thai instructor at the WKO's honbu in Pattaya right now ; he won that tournament to justify his ni(?)dan in the organization and get his current mellow, well-paying teaching gig.

If you watch his tournament matches, it's distinctively Muay Thai -- he spams the mid kicks instead of messing around with body punching. Almost looks like Changpuak when he fought Andy back in the day, except for fewer fouls haha!

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Most Kyokushin guys may not rise as high on the ball of their foot as some MT guys when kicking, but they do not necessarily plant their heel either.

This

personally most i see just barely raise the heel of the floor but still pivot on the ball of the foot , alot of people dont see it or think because its not as high as some mt guys( though ive seen some of them keep the heel closer to the floor too) its with the heel planted but thats not the case

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'll try add some more tomorrow lol - I'm very sleepy.

Hey, thanks I welcome you back with open arms tomorrow. It was really interesting to read


Also

Most Kyokushin guys may not rise as high on the ball of their foot as some MT guys when kicking, but they do not necessarily plant their heel either.
Actually I think it is more a personal thing than a style thing.

Some styles of karate pivot on their heel instead of on the ball of the foot. I find that weird.

(BTW, regarding the clip of Sakmonkol. You do know that he trains a style kempo and a kyokushin offshoot on the side? -or atleast he did while still living in Thailand. He has also competed under kyokushin rules, and actually took a title under knockdown karate rules in a minor organization. His style is not "pure" MT.)

Yeah I actually didn't know that, I thought they kept their foot planted based on the tutorials I saw, but also because I remember reading a forum thread where someone asked a kyokushin karateka if they come up on the toe or not when they kick and they said no, but in hindsite yeah I see what you mean, it is a personal thing.

I actually watched a pretty interesting video from a Shotokan fighter who said that pivoting on the hill was a very bad habbit because its reducing your potential power. He said that because the body is designed to move forward you should be rotating on the ball of your foot rather than the heel. I too find heel rotation weird.


As for Sakmongkol I completely forgot about his karate training recently, but even when he does compete in karate he just appears to be using Muay Thai to me, but that's just me I don't necessarily have the best eye for spotting technique unless its incredibly obvious. (Like JCVD botching that Muay Thai Demo)

This

personally most i see just barely raise the heel of the floor but still pivot on the ball of the foot , alot of people dont see it or think because its not as high as some mt guys( though ive seen some of them keep the heel closer to the floor too) its with the heel planted but thats not the case

Now you mention it actually the height I raise my heel really depends on my target. If I'm going for a shoulder kick (which is my equivalent to a high roundhouse because my flexibility just isn't there yet) I come up on my toe quite high, same with kicks to the upper body but the lower body I don't tend to. I seem to either do it or not do it without thinking about it.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

sorry to derail the thread but i can feel my hip bones popping when I side kick.

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Try it like this if you haven't already, you could be putting your hip at a funny angle. Do you train in a gym or do you test out things you see online?

 

[NidNoi]

personally most i see just barely raise the heel of the floor but still pivot on the ball of the foot , alot of people dont see it or think because its not as high as some mt guys( though ive seen some of them keep the heel closer to the floor too) its with the heel planted but thats not the case

Therefore Bas Rutten doesn't use kyokushin kick ? In case that what is he ? LOL

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Therefore Bas Rutten doesn't use kyokushin kick ? In case that what is he ? LOL

uh what?

I havent payed much attention to bas kicking technique but from a quick google hes coming off the heel slightly here each time he throws a roundhouse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhSMuXNMCI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgrHiWlpRGc

edit : looking at the old kyokushin guy in the video posted in the op hes saying to pivot on the ball of the foot as well.

 

[shinkyoku]

Therefore Bas Rutten doesn't use kyokushin kick ? In case that what is he ? LOL

Here we have Bas Rutten teaching his way to kick

He uses the method where you begin by turning the foot with a small instep, and then start the kick. This btw is considered a easy&powerful but flawed method in kyokushin. While it is taught, it is considered too telegraphing.
If you notice, Bas plants his heel while preparing the kick, but when the actual kick is on its way and lands, he rises the heel slightly and pivots on the ball of the foot some more.

This is Kenji Midori. Leader of the shinkyokushin faction of kyokushin. Champion of the 5th world open, the lightest champion ever and arguably the best technical fighter (although I guess Azam would nominate others)

First of all, ignore the parts where he lifts the leg and hold it and then slowly kick out, there he shows how to improve flexibility for the kick, not HOW to kick.
Take a look at the slowmotion cam as he kicks the pads at the end. (1m.24 s and on)
There you see pretty well that the heel is slightly above the floor.

Also, at the end he uses the skipping pivot method, but the first kick to the baseball bat, he uses the same method of stepping in while turning the foot, as Bas Rutten. Sadly, you cannot see the last second heel lift very well due to the cam movement.

Edit. Sorry, legs had already posted the bas kick video. I lost internet connection a while, and didn't update the thread before I posted what I had composed while offline.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Could either you or Azam (or anyone else if you know) breakdown step by step what the technique is for the kyokushin roundhouse kick. In my understanding (which is limited) You step out, you bring your knee up (but out to the side, not straight) and then snap the leg from that bent position as you turn your hips over. But I could be entirely wrong.

Also does anyone have examples of dutch fighters that are using that sort of kick?
Also, what are your opinions on combinations and such?

 

[shinkyoku]

Could either you or Azam (or anyone else if you know) breakdown step by step what the technique is for the kyokushin roundhouse kick. In my understanding (which is limited) You step out, you bring your knee up (but out to the side, not straight) and then snap the leg from that bent position as you turn your hips over. But I could be entirely wrong.

As has been pointed out there is not really one single united way to kick a roundhouse in kyokushin that everyone agree on. Have 10 top level world famous instructors teach it, and you will get atleast 5 variations taught as basics.

That said.
Take a look at the last few examples shown by Kenji Midori in the vid I posted above. That is about as schoolbook as you can get.
Lift the back leg to the side (pointing with the knee to the target), turn the hip in, at the last moment snap out the foot "through" the target, while simultaneously pivot on the ball of the foot (dont pivot by dragging the heel after the kick, but pivot with a skipping movement to generate more power).
The kick can hit with the instep, the ball of the foot or with the shin, (Ive seen a few hit with the point of their toes to the body, but that is very rare, and not commonly taught) as range and personal preference dictate.
The basic kick takes the foot up diagonally, and not too high an arc. This makes it faster and can make it hard to spot by keeping it in a "dead" vision angle (sorry about the phrasing, English is not my native language). The large arc commonly associated with MT is a variation, but not the basic way.
you can either stop the kick after it has passed "through" the target and return the foot/leg the same path, or continue the pivot and spin all the way around (although in a fight that tends to be risky if you miss the opponent and spin around showing him your back).

Stepping out while turning the support foot is a common variation, but still a variation. Here in sweden we specifically do not allow newbies to do it that way when doing formal training -we used to, way back, but now we teach the other method first and allow the step-out with foot-turn method to creep in later.