Karate scholar says Karate originates from siamese boxing/muay boran.

[AndyMaBobs]

I'm skeptical but I have no idea. The history of martial arts is pretty poorly documented as it is - so I wouldn't want to take anything as gospel.

 

[Azam]

Is pretty much how I understand the evolution of many Eastern martial arts

It's weird though how many martial arts in India have died out altogether. Most of the martial arts that are popular in India are all foreign imports.

The only legit indigenous historical martial art in India that I can think of Kushti/Pehlwani (Indian wrestling) and it's still going strong in villages/towns/cities.

The vast majority of martial arts in India have pretty much died out sadly. I don't think there is any legit weapons martial art in India anymore either - although in the past there is evidence that they did exist.

China has pretty much gone the way of India as well with the legitimacy of it's martial arts but it still has a few legit martial arts left (although the umph many had have gone after the cultural revolution) - it hasn't gone the way India has yet though.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

There's still some Kalarypayattu holdouts in India (and they do weapons work), but Pehlwani is definitely more popular. There are also some guys who are continuing the Sikh martial arts styles, but they're still mostly dead.

India also invented cross country martial arts, aka kabaddi, which is interesting. Makes me sad that so much of this stuff is being lost.

 

[Azam]

There's still some Kalarypayattu holdouts in India (and they do weapons work), but Pehlwani is definitely more popular. There are also some guys who are continuing the Sikh martial arts styles, but they're still mostly dead.

India also invented cross country martial arts, aka kabaddi, which is interesting. Makes me sad that so much of this stuff is being lost.

The thing though is Kalarypayattu is looked at as a Mcdojo style - not necessarily McDojo as we might think of it but more of a performance than actual weapons based fighting.

Going off what I've read & know of actual swordmanship - Kalarypayattu seems like it's akin to how Shaolin monks give martial arts performances of shoalin kung fu techniques. I'm sure whatever Kalarypayattu originally was - was very legit - what it is now seems to be more of a performance art.

Even Gatka (sikh martial arts) while it has legit weapons that were once used in Medieval India - it's pretty much a bunch of crap - from what swordsmanship resources are available. I'm saying this as a Punjabi too.

A lot of the ancient Indian martial arts systems died out a long time ago. I think the primary reason was probably because of British colonialism on the subcontinent for over 200 years. It makes sense that the British would probably have wanted to outlaw any weapons or any specific martial arts practises.

Kushti is the only effective art that really remains and I think that's because it's an intrinsic part of the culture - especially within the Punjab region. I know quite a few family members that practiced it.

Kabaddi is funny to me personally. I never understood the fascination some people have with it.


Yeah it's sad. But like everything there's always the possibility these lost arts can be rediscovered and lost techniques/applications can be found again. I think you'd have to look at other arts to figure it out - a bit like historical European martial arts have been rediscovered with research/publications/analysis of old manuals and other arts that didn't die out.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

It seems to be a constant across cultures that as the realities that lead to a martial art developing start to change, those martial arts tend to become either "sportified" or performance based. Has happened everywhere, in the west as much as in the East and elsewhere. It's kind of sad, but not really unexpected.

There are always attempts to rediscover the authentic old styles, but even so, there's a lot of conjecture in that. We can try to reconstruct techniques, but we'll never be certain if our reconstructions are accurate; a common problem with any and all historical fields. In the West, we're lucky in that a lot of the masters wrote manuals. I'm not familiar enough with the culture of India in general to know whether the masters would write manuals like the ones in the West did, or whether they'd keep it to a master-apprentice chain; if they did keep it master-apprentice style, it'd be a lot harder to try to reconstruct things.

 

[listrahtes]

I found Tai Chi sword to be effective against every weapons stylist I ever sparred against. I found the boxing part of it to be much, much, much less so. So I'm just going by history and my own experience. But in general, I think it's really silly to think that a country in constant armed conflict for thousands of years would only develop crap weapons fighting systems. That wasn't true of anywhere else in the world, I don't think it was uniquely true of China either.

Thats a joke is it? Please let it be a joke. Tai Chi Sword fight is just for show. All the movement basics it builds upon are a dysfunctional wellness system that has not much to do with MA other than it looks fancy.

I cant believe you sparred (real sparring with protective gear) against anyone versed in a proven sword style like Fencing, Kendo, Kobudo, historical fencing...etc.

Please upload a video of one of your sparrings.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Thats a joke is it? Please let it be a joke. Tai Chi Sword fight is just for show. All the movement basics it builds upon are a dysfunctional wellness system that has not much to do with MA other than it looks fancy.

I cant believe you sparred (real sparring with protective gear) against anyone versed in a proven sword style like Fencing, Kendo, Kobudo, historical fencing...etc.

It's not a joke, but my Tai Chi school was from one of the very few lineages that has always treated it as a martial art, William CC Chen. You can look it up if you're interested, but we treated it very much as a martial art. The main styles I got to play around against were actually Filipino guys (Arnis and Sayoc Kali people), and a little bit with Kendo and fencing. My teachers used to go to Renaissance fair tournaments to get competition against historical European enthusiasts, unfortunately I never did as I was a broke college student at the time and couldn't afford all the gear or the travel. Would have loved to though, the way European guys use grappling and striking within their sword system was very similar to what we did and it would have been really fun to have gotten those looks.

I certainly won't attempt some full throated defense of Tai Chi because the vast majority of people who do it do it badly with no connection to martial arts (and generally a lot of bull shit faux-mysticism mixed in), I just happened to be in a spot where the local Tai Chi guys were martial artists before they got into Tai Chi and sought out a lineage that was fighting oriented. We put on the gloves and boxed too, it was definitely not just moving slowly though we did plenty of that as well.

 

[listrahtes]

It's not a joke, but my Tai Chi school was from one of the very few lineages that has always treated it as a martial art, William CC Chen. You can look it up if you're interested, but we treated it very much as a martial art. The main styles I got to play around against were actually Filipino guys (Arnis and Sayoc Kali people), and a little bit with Kendo and fencing. My teachers used to go to Renaissance fair tournaments to get competition against historical European enthusiasts, unfortunately I never did as I was a broke college student at the time and couldn't afford all the gear or the travel. Would have loved to though, the way European guys use grappling and striking within their sword system was very similar to what we did and it would have been really fun to have gotten those looks.

I certainly won't attempt some full throated defense of Tai Chi because the vast majority of people who do it do it badly with no connection to martial arts (and generally a lot of bull shit faux-mysticism mixed in), I just happened to be in a spot where the local Tai Chi guys were martial artists before they got into Tai Chi and sought out a lineage that was fighting oriented. We put on the gloves and boxed too, it was definitely not just moving slowly though we did plenty of that as well.

Ok thx I stand corrected. Have trained myself Tai Chi for years in my youth while also doing Karate/Kobudo. Had contact with many practitioners and the delusion among them was as high as the Eifel tower. The sword style was utter garbage as was Tai Chi itself if you looked at it from a fighting point of view (which I do not do).

It was ITCCA Yang style regarding Chu king Hung as leader.

 

[Thycidides]

I think European foil epee and saber fencing made a lot of other martial arts redundant in a way. Those weapons are light and so not much protective gear needs to be worn. Also the limited nature of the scoring system reduces injuries and confusion in scoring.

If you look at the best example of HEMA rapier fencing it doesn't look that much different than epee but there is more confusion in scoring and more gear is worn.

 

[AshiharaFan]

The history of martial arts is pretty poorly documented as it is - so I wouldn't want to take anything as gospel.

I agree which is why I believe much (most?) of the birth, history and development of the Asian martial arts is something we may never know 100% for sure. Based on the barely available historical documents (along with some peoples' propensities to indulge in legends and refrain from questioning sources/authorities) all we can do for the most part is speculate.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I agree which is why I believe much (most?) of the birth, history and development of the Asian martial arts is something we may never know 100% for sure. Based on the barely available historical documents (along with some peoples' propensities to indulge in legends and refrain from questioning sources/authorities) all we can do for the most part is speculate.

Absolutely, when I studied history my teacher said history is largely made up - in that you'll only ever know history via the interpretation of a historian be it professional or amateur. And even then thats with stuff like WW2 and the Soviet Union that's well documented - with martial arts you don't have anywhere near that level of documentation.

 

[j123]

Absolutely, when I studied history my teacher said history is largely made up - in that you'll only ever know history via the interpretation of a historian be it professional or amateur. And even then thats with stuff like WW2 and the Soviet Union that's well documented - with martial arts you don't have anywhere near that level of documentation.

History is written by the victors.

Marital arts history is stupid, it ends up being a nationalist shitting contest. At the end of the day there's only so much you can do with 4 limbs.

and lets not even get into the straight up frauds in the medieval ages. Dude went to learn a tech. from somewhere, added it into his system and claimed it was original without a reference. That's a copyright infringement.

The whole TKD history is basically this, guy learns from Karate and other stuff, then goes off and says it originated from X centuries ago of his national's style.

Spears are the most universal and economical weapon, yet cultures worldwide that never interacted with each other all ended up creating a stick with an sharp head to push people's shit in.

 

[spacetime]

The whole TKD history is basically this, guy learns from Karate and other stuff, then goes off and says it originated from X centuries ago of his national's style.
.

That's largely irrelevant. If you watch a traditional TKD black belt kick compared to a Shotokan, it's night and day. The Koreans had their own ideas how to kick. Many differences in nuances that laymen can't pick up. Shotokan kicks are all about snap and retraction. TKD is about leverage, more hip, etc. Shotokan roundhouse kick reaches point A to B faster but is way less powerful.

 

[shincheckin]

That's absolutely right. People shit on various styles of kung fu a lot, for example, but what they don't realize is that for many of them the boxing piece was an afterthought. They were mostly concerned with being good sword and spear fighters, not with empty handed stuff. It would be like if you took Escrima or Arnis and made a system just out of the empty handed stuff: it would look, and be, stupid. Because all of the empty hand stuff is designed to play off the main stick/knife stuff which is the meat of the system. European sword manuals show a lot of grappling, but that grappling wouldn't make any sense outside the context of also having a long sword. You certainly wouldn't expect it to make a sword master effective in a wrestling match against a wrestler. Proper context is really important for assessing the historical worth of various old arts.

you can also bet that when it came down to fighting with weapons and your life depended on it, people used what (style) worked, rather than any particular style/form. Just as people use whats practical in MMA today rather than "ameridotae"

 

[SaiWa]

Yes and thats inferior to non telegraphic quick lunges and shortest distance movements etc as were the swords they used heavier less effective etc and they used the sword in the rear and up front and even square on where you are the biggest target, they used alot of curved lines that take longer , the swords didnt protect the wrist/hand etc

Its FULL of stupid stances and movements named after animals GET REAL!

Goddamn traditional artists!

damn son!... re-the-fuck-lax!!!

you woulda thought every other poster in this thread had insulted your family or raped your sister... the anger...

do you happen to teach or practice fencing??? lol.

 

[SaiWa]

Yeah it's shocking how many people think sport fencing is actually realistic sword fighting. Sport fencing is pretty much dueling made into a sport.

But then again in the past I use to think the katana was actually used in warfare - now I know better.

please explain!...

 

[SaiWa]

Agreed. I enjoyed fencing but very little of it is transferrable to fighting outside of the fencing sport imo.

some moves were transferrable yes? Bruce Lee supposedly studied and borrowed moves from fencing...

 

[panamaican]

some moves were transferrable yes? Bruce Lee supposedly studied and borrowed moves from fencing...

The precision, the need to quickly enter and exit range. I guess mostly the timing and reflexes. I suppose you could borrow some the exchange strategies for hand to hand but I think they're already there other martial arts.

 

[j123]

you can also bet that when it came down to fighting with weapons and your life depended on it, people used what (style) worked, rather than any particular style/form. Just as people use whats practical in MMA today rather than "ameridotae"

Shut your whore mouth, "Ameridote" is the GOAT-est of styles. Who the hell wants to learn fighting from a bunch of third world commies and poor people that don't have freedom

That's largely irrelevant. If you watch a traditional TKD black belt kick compared to a Shotokan, it's night and day. The Koreans had their own ideas how to kick. Many differences in nuances that laymen can't pick up. Shotokan kicks are all about snap and retraction. TKD is about leverage, more hip, etc. Shotokan roundhouse kick reaches point A to B faster but is way less powerful.

They're both snap type kicks. Maybe one has more than the other, but its still within the same boat.

 

[spacetime]

They're both snap type kicks. Maybe one has more than the other, but its still within the same boat.

The traditional Taekwondo way (which is different from the thing you see in the Olympics) is very different. With Korean kicks, your body does a full rotation. In Japanese style more like half rotation, and you lean forward with your body (both roundhouse and sidekicks). In TKD you lean to the side and you do a full turn over. Korean way: more acceleration, more power, but more consuming.