Karate scholar says Karate originates from siamese boxing/muay boran.

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

I have. It works fine. Modern sport fencing is a far cry removed from actual sword fighting, the lack of lateral movement and the unfamiliarity with a heavier blade makes it less effective than you might suppose.

I mean try it on the narrow runway yea they got watered down badly sad but ud get the jist of it if you were also narrowed down, it wouldnt be unimaginable to fight someone on a bridge anyway see how you fair on a bridge, then later realize they could do angles too a little further back, and that they are far superior

You are the heathen getting stabbed in the knee, because you have no understanding of western science. You have ideas for what is effective, good ideas built on experience, buy those ideas are inferior to western ideas.

Here we have an ignoramus, still doing it like a heathen despite science updating how to optimally sword fight, but he is convinced he knows best and that his way is superior so he carries on with his non scientific style while thinking of weak ego excuses as to why its just as good or better

A slow heavy sword held in the back with an immobile stance that doesn't protect the body very well cmon, see the light of reason

Damn you crazy traditional artists its like arguing with theists!

 

[shinkyoku]

I think it would be pretty well known that karate has a cross. As for hooks and upper cuts i'm sure they exist. I've only ever seen a ridge hand though.

In kyokushin terminology (terminology vary between styles, and sometimes even slightly within a style):
age tsuki - uppercut
kage tsuki - hook punch
ago uchi - jab
basic techniques. Nothing unusual or rare about them -although the uppercut and jab are unusual in trad knockdown competitions since they usually target the face, and that is banned under the rules. In point(WKF ) karate rules they score on the low end, but are not unusual.
If you only seen ridge hand (almost only seen in bad movies), you have not looked very hard. Or at all.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Just because the Chinese approach is somewhat different to the Western approach in terms of weapons does not mean that it is inherently less effective, especially when approached rigorously. And the concept of "Western science" and the like is amusing, given that we're only recently rediscovering how HEMA stuff works. Also referring to people as heathens and then complaining about theists? At least attempt to make your trolling consistent.

The emphasis on weapons based systems for most of history is why groundfighting a la BJJ and sport wrestling is also a reasonably recent phenomenon. The reason a pin counted as a win in catch and most wrestling styles, including judo, is because the idea is that if you can restrain someone on the ground for that long, you can probably pull out a dagger (which everyone would have had) and shank the guy in the eye.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

I have heard this theory that it at least partially Influenced karate

But then again you have to consider scholars believe archaic empty handed systems made their way south from China and mixed with the native arts there so any similarities between stuff like Siamese boxing or Pentjak may simply be because they both have a Chinese martial ancestor.

 

[mon]

I'm a big fan of Patrick McCarthy and have his bubishi karate bible book.

I pretty much agree with everything he's written in that article except the Siam part.

There's virtually no evidence he's presented to conclude without reasonable doubt that Okinawan Te came from Siam or Muay Boran. In fact I'd say there's even little evidence for an assumption like that.

His basis for saying that he thinks Okinawan Te comes from Siam is; (1) Okinawa had historical trading relations with Siam and the areas around southeast Asia, (2) that out of all of the martial arts in the region only muay boran seemed to resemble the description of Okinawan Te.

The basis he has for concluding what he thinks about the origins of Okinawan Te are very weak imho. Sure it's a valid assumption but I think it's difficult to conclude that from the two pieces of circumstantial evidence he's provided above.

Nearly every country in and around southeast Asia has had historical trading relations with one another - Siam and Okinawa aren't unique in that regard. Also in regards to muay boran being the closest resemblance to Okinawan te - McCarthy I think erroneously tries to look for something that looks like the closest template to Okinawan Te. I think that's where imo he might have gone wrong. Most martial arts systems are not complete templates of one another - if you look at how many martial arts are historically formed they often borrow bits and pieces from other martial arts that have influenced them - very rarely do they just use one martial art as a template or just have one martial art as a sole influence.

If anyone is confused as to what I'm trying to say above - who's to say that Okinawan Te didn't borrow from many martial arts styles in southeast Asia - it doesn't necessarily have to be one style (muay boran) - after all there was a lot of countries in Southeast Asia trading with Okinawa, that had much stronger historical ties to Okinawa than Siam (like China, Japan, Korea, Indonesia).

Also in regards to the resemblance of muay boran to Okinawan Te that Patrick McCarthy used to justify his position - Pencak Silat also very greatly resembles Okinawan Te - maybe more so than muay boran - given that it's in similar geographical distance to Okinawa. Plus many of Silat's techniques bare an eerie similarity to traditional karate techniques in a way that Muay Boran does not as far as I know.

It's probably more likely that Okinawan Te was influenced by multiple martial arts styles from China - given than China has the strongest historical link with Okinawa and a link that's the oldest by far. Chinese migration to Okinawa started as early as the 14th century (probably even earlier but on a lesser scale). It's also the closest geographically and Okinawa was a tributary of China for a long ass time - many of the officials in the Ryukyu were descendants of Chinese. There was a lot of cultural, economical, military, technology etc back/forth with China - also there was a substantial amount of migration of Okinawans to China and Chinese to Okinawa. I think that's why karateka on Okinawa attribute the origins of karate to the southern Chinese mainland.

I think it's most likely that China had the most influence on Okinawan Te with other countries in Southeast Asia having less of an influence.

From what I know as well Sakugawa Kanga learnt styles originally from China.

I could be wrong - I'd like to hear more about Patrick McCarthy's reasoning behind why he came to that conclusion. I mean the guy is much more well versed in Karate history than me - so there's always a possibility I'm missing something.

Nailed it. If its the book I remember it had probably the only dimuk(?) references I'd believe in any way, shape or form. Great book and essential reading for anyone who has an interest in Japanese martial arts.

Must admit I thought he suggested the influence was from China, though I'm the fist to admit I haven't read it in a long time.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

In kyokushin terminology (terminology vary between styles, and sometimes even slightly within a style):
age tsuki - uppercut
kage tsuki - hook punch
ago uchi - jab
basic techniques. Nothing unusual or rare about them -although the uppercut and jab are unusual in trad knockdown competitions since they usually target the face, and that is banned under the rules. In point(WKF ) karate rules they score on the low end, but are not unusual.
If you only seen ridge hand (almost only seen in bad movies), you have not looked very hard. Or at all.

I was talking about a ridge hand as opposed to straight punches. I've never seen a traditional karate guy throw hook or uppercut like a boxer. KK is another story.

 

[Azam]

I have heard this theory that it at least partially Influenced karate

But then again you have to consider scholars believe archaic empty handed systems made their way south from China and mixed with the native arts there so any similarities between stuff like Siamese boxing or Pentjak may simply be because they both have a Chinese martial ancestor.

It's hard to make that association though given that there is little evidence (McCarthy saying Siam influenced te). I mean you could make that assertion between Okinawa and China because there is a lot of evidence of substantial mixing of populations, technology and evidence of martial arts masters in Okinawa having been chinese martial artists. Like Kanga Sakugawa who literally learnt chuan fa and taught karate to Matsumura Sokon who taught nearly all the early influential karateka in Okinawa.

Yeah I think the influence of Chinese martial arts on the region are very understated but I think the influence of Indian martial arts on the region are also understated.

I read a blog a while back that mentioned how similar busaganashi (patron god of goju - found in nearly every karate dojo in Okinawa) bares an uncanny resemblance to Nataraja (shiva):

I've personally also noticed how the chi-ishi in karate was very similar to the gada (macebell) used in traditional Indian wrestling since I've used a macebell myself. It's pretty much a shorter version with less shot at the end. It got me thinking that these things must have found their way from India > China > Karate. Since the gada macebell is the hallmark of Indian wrestling (Hanuman who wields a mace - also happens to be the patron god of Indian wrestling too).

There might some slight influence from Siam on Te but I don't think it's as much as McCarthy thinks - I could be wrong - again this is only my assumption. He may have information that I don't.


Also in the case of Uechi ryu - the influence of Muay Boran/Siam is non-existent because it came directly from China and developed outside the influence of Okinawan karate circles.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It even still is like that today. I heard that the h2h taught in the military is just a self-confidence booster. The gameplan is to re-equip and regroup with the team, not engage in fisticuffs with an enemy. Self-confidence is good, you don't exactly want soldiers to be scared and frozen in the heat of an encounter when their tool is missing.

Yeah, that's why whenever I hear people trying to talk about how badass they are at hand to hand fighting because they were in the military I always chuckle, because military hand to hand is by design really simple and limited. Your bare hands are the last thing you want to be attacking an enemy with in combat, if you're weaponless all you want to do is punch the guy long enough to grab a weapon. It would be an utter waste of training time for soldiers to get really good at what would amount to MMA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I mean try it on the narrow runway yea they got watered down badly sad but ud get the jist of it if you were also narrowed down, it wouldnt be unimaginable to fight someone on a bridge anyway see how you fair on a bridge, then later realize they could do angles too a little further back, and that they are far superior

You are the heathen getting stabbed in the knee, because you have no understanding of western science. You have ideas for what is effective, good ideas built on experience, buy those ideas are inferior to western ideas.

Here we have an ignoramus, still doing it like a heathen despite science updating how to optimally sword fight, but he is convinced he knows best and that his way is superior so he carries on with his non scientific style while thinking of weak ego excuses as to why its just as good or better

A slow heavy sword held in the back with an immobile stance that doesn't protect the body very well cmon, see the light of reason

Damn you crazy traditional artists its like arguing with theists!

Donnie Yen is an actor and acrobatic forms guy. I never hit a stance like that in all the time I did kung fu. We stood pretty much straight up in fencing style stances with our swords in front of us, slightly angled, kept between ourselves and our opponents. Our main goal was to slice our opponent's hand/wrist or knee/calf areas. If we got really close, we'd try to control his sword hand and take him down so we could stab him. It was all pretty straight forward. We spent a lot of time doing sensitivity and movement drills, a big part of it was getting people to over extend so they couldn't get back on defense quickly enough. Which as I understand it is also a pretty big strategic aspect of Olympic fencing styles.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Donnie Yen is an actor and acrobatic forms guy. I never hit a stance like that in all the time I did kung fu. We stood pretty much straight up in fencing style stances with our swords in front of us, slightly angled, kept between ourselves and our opponents. Our main goal was to slice our opponent's hand/wrist or knee/calf areas. If we got really close, we'd try to control his sword hand and take him down so we could stab him. It was all pretty straight forward. We spent a lot of time doing sensitivity and movement drills, a big part of it was getting people to over extend so they couldn't get back on defense quickly enough. Which as I understand it is also a pretty big strategic aspect of Olympic fencing styles.

Yes and thats inferior to non telegraphic quick lunges and shortest distance movements etc as were the swords they used heavier less effective etc and they used the sword in the rear and up front and even square on where you are the biggest target, they used alot of curved lines that take longer , the swords didnt protect the wrist/hand etc

Its FULL of stupid stances and movements named after animals GET REAL!

Goddamn traditional artists!

 

[shinkyoku]

In kyokushin terminology (terminology vary between styles, and sometimes even slightly within a style):
age tsuki - uppercut
kage tsuki - hook punch
ago uchi - jab
basic techniques. Nothing unusual or rare about them -although the uppercut and jab are unusual in trad knockdown competitions since they usually target the face, and that is banned under the rules.
If you only seen ridge hand (almost only seen in bad movies), you have not looked very hard. Or at all.

I was talking about a ridge hand as opposed to straight punches. I've never seen a traditional karate guy throw hook or uppercut like a boxer. KK is another story.

No difference. WKF point karate (and shotokan "ippon shobu") has always allowed them (scoring the same as straight punches), although as they are more close quarter techniques, they tend to not be used as much as the long range stuff due to the "first hit scores" rule.
All rules I have ever seen has allowed them -even if the rules may have caused them to be tactically "difficult". "Continuous fight" rules tend to focus on them more than "first hit" rules. (you may have seen my old thread "so you think you know all about karate")
And they are there as formal techniques in the in all the trad styles syllabus -although their formal kihon executions may not be very convincing to someone who train to do them full contact in tournaments. But Kihon techniques are not kumite techniques -not in any style. First you learn kihon, then you learn how to apply them in fighting. (edit: I just noticed that you had added "like a boxer" to the requirement)
In shotokan hooks are called mawashi tsuki/zuki instead of kage tsuki -at-least in some dojos. in others they spell it kagi tsuki/zuki. In goju ryu (where kyokushin got them), hooks are called Furi tsuki/zuki (and sometimes furi uchi). But they are always there.

BTW. depending on how you define it, shita tsuki (aka: ura zsuki) is also a uppercut (although unlike "proper" uppercuts, they are aimed at the stomach, ribs, kidney or solar plexus instead of the chin). They exist as a separate technique in all karate styles as-well.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

No difference. WKF point karate (and shotokan "ippon shobu") has always allowed them (scoring the same as straight punches), although as they are more close quarter techniques, they tend to not be used as much as the long range stuff due to the "first hit scores" rule.
All rules I have ever seen has allowed them -even if the rules may have caused them to be tactically "difficult". "Continuous fight" rules tend to focus on them more than "first hit" rules. (you may have seen my old thread "so you think you know all about karate")
And they are there as formal techniques in the in all the trad styles syllabus -although their formal kihon executions may not be very convincing to someone who train to do them full contact in tournaments. But Kihon techniques are not kumite techniques -not in any style. First you learn kihon, then you learn how to apply them in fighting. (edit: I just noticed that you had added "like a boxer" to the requirement)
In shotokan hooks are called mawashi tsuki/zuki instead of kage tsuki -at-least in some dojos. in others they spell it kagi tsuki/zuki. In goju ryu (where kyokushin got them), hooks are called Furi tsuki/zuki (and sometimes furi uchi). But they are always there.

BTW. depending on how you define it, shita tsuki (aka: ura zsuki) is also a uppercut (although unlike "proper" uppercuts, they are aimed at the stomach, ribs, kidney or solar plexus instead of the chin). They exist as a separate technique in all karate styles as-well.

I'll take your word for it. Thanks for the info

 

[Uchi Mata]

I mean try it on the narrow runway yea they got watered down badly sad but ud get the jist of it if you were also narrowed down, it wouldnt be unimaginable to fight someone on a bridge anyway see how you fair on a bridge, then later realize they could do angles too a little further back, and that they are far superior

You are the heathen getting stabbed in the knee, because you have no understanding of western science. You have ideas for what is effective, good ideas built on experience, buy those ideas are inferior to western ideas.

Here we have an ignoramus, still doing it like a heathen despite science updating how to optimally sword fight, but he is convinced he knows best and that his way is superior so he carries on with his non scientific style while thinking of weak ego excuses as to why its just as good or better

A slow heavy sword held in the back with an immobile stance that doesn't protect the body very well cmon, see the light of reason

Damn you crazy traditional artists its like arguing with theists!

European sword fighting is also a traditional martial art.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

European sword fighting is also a traditional martial art.

so is wrestling but we dont think of it that way because it works well, when we think of traditional arts we usually mean something that doesn't work a relic of the past nearly always from asia


also I used it in a different context I used it because it was more modern than the methods of sword fighting I was comparing it to

I was also comparing western with eastern

 

[panamaican]

I have. It works fine. Modern sport fencing is a far cry removed from actual sword fighting, the lack of lateral movement and the unfamiliarity with a heavier blade makes it less effective than you might suppose.

Agreed. I enjoyed fencing but very little of it is transferrable to fighting outside of the fencing sport imo.

 

[panamaican]

India > China > Somewhere else.

Is pretty much how I understand the evolution of many Eastern martial arts

 

[spacetime]

In kyokushin terminology (terminology vary between styles, and sometimes even slightly within a style):
age tsuki - uppercut
kage tsuki - hook punch
ago uchi - jab
basic techniques. Nothing unusual or rare about them -although the uppercut and jab are unusual in trad knockdown competitions since they usually target the face, and that is banned under the rules. In point(WKF ) karate rules they score on the low end, but are not unusual.
If you only seen ridge hand (almost only seen in bad movies), you have not looked very hard. Or at all.

Although in fairness to Jimmy, the reverse straight punch (zuki) is drilled far more often than hooks and uppercuts in most Karate dojos.

 

[panamaican]

Although in fairness to Jimmy, the reverse straight punch (zuki) is drilled far more often than hooks and uppercuts in most Karate dojos.

Because the basic mechanics have applicability in far more techniques. The stepping punch and the reverse punch are phenomenal techniques for drilling the type of weight shifting, balance and hip rotation that you find in so many other techniques that they should play a prominent role in any consistent practice regimen.

Similarly, if you want to know if your fundamentals are sound or flawed, Heian shodan and nidan will highlight those laws faster and more adroitly than a bunch of any other drills.

 

[spacetime]

Because the basic mechanics have applicability in far more techniques. The stepping punch and the reverse punch are phenomenal techniques for drilling the type of weight shifting, balance and hip rotation that you find in so many other techniques that they should play a prominent role in any consistent practice regimen.

Similarly, if you want to know if your fundamentals are sound or flawed, Heian shodan and nidan will highlight those laws faster and more adroitly than a bunch of any other drills.

The hook punch is seen frequently seen in bare knuckled JKA fights from the 70-80s. Not so much todays WKF though

 

[panamaican]

The hook punch is seen frequently in JKA fights from the 70-80s. Not so much WKF though

Sure, but you said the gyaku tsuki was drilled more, which it is. I'm just explaining part of why that is so.