Is Woodley-Maia disheartening for you BJJ guys?

Werdum has the same submission ratio in MMA (more or less) as Maia... Also similiar number of matches. Also subbed better opponents

Maybe Werdum is a bad example.

I haven't watched many Werdum fights, but from the ones I've seen his subs are more opportunistic, and he's not 100% focused on the takedown -> position -> finish progression.
 
Woodley actually beat a more accomplished BJJer: Andre Galvao.

tbh andre isnt near as good at subs as maia andre wins on athleticism more with control vs subs i think maia has best subs by far p4p people talk about werdum werdums greta but at hw if you are a decent bjj guy you do very well on the ground
 
when people say bjj doesnt work in mma i like to resite something i heard drysdale say

how many punches are thrown per fight usually a few hundred at least so if a fight goes to a decision after hundreds of hooks right hands are thrown does that mean striking sucks? let a guy take someones back at just a fraction of how many strikes are thrown per fight and see what happens
 
Damien Maia is arguably the greatest brazilian jujitsu practitioner to ever enter the octagon, and when confronted with a solid wrestler who does not want to take it to the ground, has no answers.

I find it similiar to Overeem-Werdum 2. And Overeem isn't even a wrestler! He's just jacked.

Anyway, do these types of match-ups make you disheartened?
Why would they? There are so many factors in an mma fight. The most distinguishing is that maia is and was old. It just so happens that maia is a specialist. He doesn't really have a plan b to go back on if he can't land a takedown. If you're a top level bjj guy but you can't get takedowns against a solid wrestler, what does that automatically spell out for you? It means you need to learn how to wrestle. In maia's case, age goes against him. But for a 22 year old blackbelt such as gordon ryan, there's plenty of time to learn how to wrestler. Imagine 2 gold medalist wrestlers fighting each other, except one is a bjj blackbelt. Wouldn't most agree that the bjj would be highly useful and effective? I guess the problem I have with this question is that implies that bjj can't stop a good wrestler, but it has multiple times before.
 
BJJ champions are not wrestlers. To stuff a BJJ guys TD with sprawling and striking is ten times easier than to do so against a wrestler.



The chief difficulty i see here is, you've perhaps noticed, on an instinctive level at least, something that is more or less true, noticed that people in MMA who happen to have backgrounds in popular wrestling sports (usually folkstyle, sometimes freestyle) tend to have good success, perhaps disproportionate success even, against many other types of fighters with different sorts of history.

Trying to understand why that may be is where you are falling flat here however, and it seems like every time you try to hold forth on the subject something that smacks alternately of, lack of perspective due to ignorance, facile reasoning, or pointless antagonism, comes out instead.

It is almost like, as soon as you discover a nugget of some plausibility in a matter, you immediately jump to look for an argument somewhere (or if no argument is found, start one yourself), make a 'side', and try to use that nugget as a 'weapon' to 'win' a 'fight' for whatever hobbyhorse you've spontaneously adopted.

As is sometimes said, 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Your fixation on how they [the described 'wrestling based' fighters], match up with so described 'bjj fighters' in particular, gives one the impression of how, perhaps, you are using 'bjj fighter' as a stand in for ground fighting in general (which would be rather mushy-minded, im sure you understand now that it's pointed out consciously), such that it would ultimately serve a 'side' of 'striking superiority' in your mind? Or perhaps, assure yourself that it is 'not necessary' to learn such things? Or perhaps that learning ground fighting is somehow mutually exclusive with learning wrestling, while learning striking somehow isnt? Or perhaps you simply are all het up about bjj, in specific?
 
Last edited:
The chief difficulty i see here is, you've perhaps noticed, on an instinctive level at least, something that is more or less true, noticed that people in MMA who happen to have backgrounds in popular wrestling sports (usually folkstyle, sometimes freestyle) tend to have good success, perhaps disproportionate success even, against many other types of fighters with different sorts of history.

Trying to understand why that may be is where you are falling flat here however, and it seems like every time you try to hold forth on the subject something that smacks alternately of, lack of perspective due to ignorance, facile reasoning, or pointless antagonism, comes out instead.

It is almost like, as soon as you discover a nugget of some plausibility in a matter, you immediately jump to look for an argument somewhere (or if no argument is found, start one yourself), make a 'side', and try to use that nugget as a 'weapon' to 'win' a 'fight' for whatever hobbyhorse you've spontaneously adopted.

As is sometimes said, 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Your fixation on how they [the described 'wrestling based' fighters], match up with so described 'bjj fighters' in particular, gives one the impression of how, perhaps, you are using 'bjj fighter' as a stand in for ground fighting in general (which would be rather mushy-minded, im sure you understand now that it's pointed out consciously), such that it would ultimately serve a 'side' of 'striking superiority' in your mind? Or perhaps, assure yourself that it is 'not necessary' to learn such things? Or perhaps that learning ground fighting is somehow mutually exclusive with learning wrestling, while learning striking somehow isnt? Or perhaps you simply are all het up about bjj, in specific?

There's a difference between crosstraining wrestling, and being an actual wrestler.
 
There's a difference between crosstraining wrestling, and being an actual wrestler.


What makes you functionally isometric with being an actual wrestler, is actually training wrestling.
 
What makes you functionally isometric with being an actual wrestler, is actually training wrestling.

So are MMA fighters functionally isometric with boxers because they crosstrain boxing?
 
So are MMA fighters functionally isometric with boxers because they crosstrain boxing?


A boxer who would consider crossing over to MMA, if he wished to succeed at the game called MMA, would naturally have to readjust the proportions of training time he would normally have spent on things theretofore in preparation for the game of boxing. Which is to say, spending less of his limited time on boxing specific training, and more time with many other areas of interpersonal combat endeavor.

Just the same as with any other sort of athlete, be they boxer, thai boxer, catch wrestler, collegiate wrestler, judoka, jiujiteiro, or rugby lineman.

A boxer in MMA wouldn't box like a boxer, a freestyle wrestler in MMA wouldn't do takedowns like a freestyle wrestler, a thai fighter in MMA wouldn't clinch like a thai fighter, a bjj player wouldn't play guard in MMA like a bjj player, a sub grappler of any kind wouldn't do passes or submissions like he would pass or submit in his sport.

In pretty much any field of athletic endeavor, most especially more complex ones like combat sports, skills are too a great degree about 'what have you done for me lately'. Even if you grew up doing a certain thing, if it is not maintained at the same level with the same levels of monthly investment up to then, then it will not avail you to that level.

In MMA, it is in fact rather straightforward to have great superiority in any one single area over just about any opponent, even ones who might have a 'background' in that area... but that is just the thing: one single area. MMA is a cake with a lot of elements that can all interact in interesting ways. Not all have equal 'gravity' though, of course. That's the key thing. Identifying those vital schwerpunkts, and, if you believe in them, if you invest more into them in your preparations than an opponent of comprable talent as yourself, even if he 'grew up' doing things that may have involved them, if he doesn't invest as much as you have, then you will certainly overcome him there.
 
Last edited:
A boxer who would consider crossing over to MMA, if he wished to succeed at the game called MMA, would naturally have to readjust the proportions of training time he would normally have spent on things theretofore in preparation for his boxing fights. Which is to say, spending less of his limited time on boxing specific training, and more time with many other areas of interpersonal combat endeavor.

Just the same as with any other sort of athlete, be they boxer, thai boxer, catch wrestler, collegiate wrestler, judoka, jiujiteiro, or rugby lineman.

A boxer in MMA wouldn't box like a boxer, a freestyle wrestler in MMA wouldn't do takedowns like a freestyle wrestler, a karateka in MMA wouldn't blitz like a karateka, a bjj player wouldn't play guard in mma like a bjj player, a sub grappler of any kind wouldn't do passes or submissions like he would pass or submit in his sport.

In pretty much any field of athletic endeavor, most especially more complex ones like combat sports, skills are about 'what have you done for me lately'. Even if you grew up doing a certain thing, if it is not maintained at the same level with the same levels of investment up to then, then it will not avail you.

In MMA, it is in fact rather easy to have great superiority in any one single area over just about any opponent, even ones who might have a 'background' in that area... but that is just the thing: one single area. MMA is a cake with a lot of elements that can all interact in interesting ways. Not all have equal 'gravity' though, of course. That's the key thing. Identifying those vital schwerpunkts, and, if you believe in them, if you invest more into them in your preparations than an opponent of comprable talent as yourself, even if he 'grew up' doing things that may have involved them, if he doesn't invest as much as you have, then you will certainly overcome him there.

You didn't answer the question. Part of being "a wrestler" , "a boxer" is past or current specialization. This past experience makes a huge difference compared to someone who crosstrains.
 
You didn't answer the question. Part of being "a wrestler" , "a boxer" is past or current specialization. This past experience makes a huge difference compared to someone who crosstrains.


Yes, specialization, exactly as i was talking about. If they are doing the same training now, then they will be the same; what difference will come from their differing qualities. I answered exactly that question and even went beyond and explained the context around it, by implication (which seems to have gone over your head).

If you have a guy who grew up wrestling but, after deciding to transfer over to MMA, neglects this aspect and spends all his his training time just on things like sparring full contact and striking related drills, and put him vs a guy who grew up doing like, say, karate, but after deciding to step into cages spent the last 3 or so years spending lots of time on his takedowns in training, and focuses on that in his training camp leading up to the fight, more than the other guy does... then the latter guy will certainly be superior in takedowns come fight day.
 
Last edited:
Yes, specialization, exactly as i was talking about. If they are doing the same training now, then they will be the same; what difference will come from their differing qualities. I answered exactly that question and even went beyond and explained the context around it, by implication (which seems to have gone over your head).

If you have a guy who grew up wrestling but, after deciding to transfer over to MMA, neglects this aspect and spends all his his training time just on things like sparring full contact and striking related drills, and put him vs a guy who grew up doing like, say, karate, but after deciding to step into cages spent the last 3 or so years spending lots of time on his takedowns in training, and focuses on that in his training camp leading up to the fight, more than the other guy does... then the latter guy will certainly be superior in takedowns come fight day.

I am not so sure it is the same training. If MMA fighters don't spar boxing rules in training camps, then an equally skilled boxer will have better hands due to his sparring base. The specialized sparring format develops skills you would not normally have.

It doesn't make sense for MMA fighters in camp to spar to spar boxing rules. Their hands would get better but but they need training for the actual format that's ahead.

A specialized fighter who crosses over will get the best of both worlds. And the majority of UFC champs are indeed former specialists in either BJJ or Wrestling.
 
Spacetime...

Troll threading his way to Sherbro black belt.

I mean, if that's the only way he can legit earn one...

Who r we to criticize his credibility...

LOL!
 
Spacetime...

Troll threading his way to Sherbro black belt.

I mean, if that's the only way he can legit earn one...

Who r we to criticize his credibility...

LOL!

I'm not trolling. I think Woodley-Maia was the final nail in coffin for jujitsu. Wrestlers will rule the UFC like the Chinese will the world.
 
Damien Maia is arguably the greatest brazilian jujitsu practitioner to ever enter the octagon, and when confronted with a solid wrestler who does not want to take it to the ground, has no answers.

I find it similiar to Overeem-Werdum 2. And Overeem isn't even a wrestler! He's just jacked.

Anyway, do these types of match-ups make you disheartened?

Probably about as disheartening as a cyclist would feel about Lance Armstrong losing in a triathlon.

MMA means being good at striking, takedowns, and groundwork. BJJ is used by almost everyone for the groundwork aspect - its a vital component of MMA. BJJ'ers are rightly proud of that. But of course, its also well known and understood you need wrestling for takedowns, and boxing/muy thai for striking.

BTW, Roger Gracie is the best BJJ practitioner to enter the octagon.
 
I'm not trolling. I think Woodley-Maia was the final nail in coffin for jujitsu. Wrestlers will rule the UFC like the Chinese will the world.

How many of those wrestlers will do so without spending a lot of time working on their striking and submission grappling (ie BJJ)?

Seriously, style vs style is long gone. Again, its like expecting to win the triathlon by working on just one of swimming, running, or cycling. No one seriously believes you can win with just one aspect of MMA (or triathlon).
 
How many of those wrestlers will do so without spending a lot of time working on their striking and submission grappling (ie BJJ)?

Seriously, style vs style is long gone. Again, its like expecting to win the triathlon by working on just one of swimming, running, or cycling. No one seriously believes you can win with just one aspect of MMA (or triathlon).

Woodley didn't use any jujitsu to dispose of Galvao and Maia. None. Zero.
 
Woodley didn't use any jujitsu to dispose of Galvao and Maia. None. Zero.

And yet according to Woodley himself, he spends a lot of time practicing BJJ - because he thinks its absolutely necessary for MMA success. Does that make him stupid in your opinion?

Moreover, McGregor beat Aldo and Ray Mercer beat Tim Sylvia without any wrestling - does that make wrestling redundant?
 
And yet according to Woodley himself, he spends a lot of time practicing BJJ - because he thinks its absolutely necessary for MMA success. Does that make him stupid in your opinion?

Nope. Always good to have a plan B. I was genuinely looking forward to elite BJJ rollers choking out UFC champion wrestlers. But I knew deep down inside that Maia would never get him down.:(
 
I am not so sure it is the same training.


But if it is, then it is...

I feel like one of the, how to say, mental blocks here? Is that on some level you seem to be thinking that, if you have a certain guy, from a certain background, he 'has' to train a certain way, and cannot otherwise.

In reality though, if training a certain way gives you an advantage, a perhaps unqualified advantage even, then, you do that. The only thing that's really stopping you is... yourself.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top