Is judo really suboptimal for MMA or are there just more wrestlers?

[TheLastEmperorReurns]

imo comparing wrestling, judo, and sambo in order of effectiveness and practical value is as much of a waste of a time as comparing boxing, muay thai, and karate in the same manner.

Being "well-rounded" in 1990s MMA meant proficiency in 1 martial art in each phase of fighting [stand-up, takedowns, ground] but today to be truly well-rounded you have to be proficicient in each subphase of fighting.

Meaning that you have to be well-rounded in stand-up [mixing boxing, muay thai, and karate/TKD/capoeira], wrestling [greco, folk-style, judo, sambo], and ground [BJJ, Sambo, Catch-Wrestling.]

 

[djason1988]

I think the uniform plays a big part in it. If all top level judokas were doing it no gi i think it would be an easier transition into mma but thats not the case. Wrestlers are trained to grab for the body not clothes so it adapts instantly to mma.

Came in to say this. I've done judo for years, and it relies VERY heavily on the gi. A large portion of the throws, traditionally taught, can't be used without the gi, or at least have to be heavily modified.

 

[ShadowOfDeath]

I think the lack of Judoka in MMA has more to do with how Judoka and their organizations view MMA.

They dont take too kindly to how brutal the sport can be.

True. The history of BJJ is linked to MMA and wrestling is more kind to it aswell. Judokas generally view MMA as a bloodsport and rarely gain interest in transitioning. As MMA gains recognition and legitimacy (if the current UFC management doesn't kill that too) there will be more crossovers and eventually mature with a mass of judokas training specifically to transition (as with BJJ often)

 

[Bend NvR Break]

then the bjj guy should be allowed to wear shoes too. the gi can also be used against the bjj guy.

Bjj guy can where shoes too it's just more likely that he would turn them down

 

[THECYNDlCATE]

It seems a fairly common belief that judo is inferior to wrestling as an MMA base but is it necessarily accurate or does the much greater number of high level wrestlers that enter MMA compared to high level judokas just make it seem that way? We've seen some accomplished MMA wrestlers get thrown around by judokas - Shields by Lombard and Tate by Ronda, and Fedor took a good part of his grappling game from judo. Of course wrestling would have some advantages like more focus on shot takedowns, but is judo truly as inferior as some claim or might it see greater success if more top judokas started coming over?

Can't compare Judo and Wrestling. They are used for different things.

I will say, if I take a straight up high level college wrestler and put him against a Judo black belt in an MMA fight, the wrestler is going to win it most times. Wrestling is more effective at controlling people and taking them down, at a distance. Judo is about getting good in the clinch.

That being said, Judo really helps in clinch work and the trips/throws hurt people. It's a useful tool. Remember, Sambo is Judo. There are more successful Judo players than you think.

 

[TheLastEmperorReurns]

Can't compare Judo and Wrestling. They are used for different things.

I will say, if I take a straight up high level college wrestler and put him against a Judo black belt in an MMA fight, the wrestler is going to win it most times. Wrestling is more effective at controlling people and taking them down, at a distance. Judo is about getting good in the clinch.

That being said, Judo really helps in clinch work and the trips/throws hurt people. It's a useful tool. Remember, Sambo is Judo. There are more successful Judo players than you think.

Pure wrestling vs. Pure Judo means the Judoka armbars the wrestler....

A wrestler needs at least beginner level submission training to be competent against a Judoka on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu bb]

We're seeing more leg sleeps in MMA too, they may not be classical Judo all the time, but Max Holloway kept hitting them vs Anthony Pettis recently. Yoshihiro Akiyama was very good at it too

We see trip set ups even at the highest levels of freestyle wrestling too

You even see arm throws work at high levels in wrestling sometimes

And I see a lot of hip throw variants in wrestling too, I'm not sure about rulings on certain throws in wrestling.

Grappling is not linear, Judo can be very effective in MMA if applied the right way. We already see a lot of greats in MMA and Freestyle wrestling implement techniques famous in Judo as it is.

Solid post.

 

[guard_passer]

the best form of grappling for MMA is catch wrestling, hands down. unfortunately BJJ has a hold on the market for MMA grappling. Im a brown belt in BJJ Ive trained catch in Japan, their athletes are incredible. BJJ seldom focuses on realistic takedowns and aggressiveness

 

[Blayt7hh]

this is easily a no brainer...

both are mainly stand up grappling arts, one is done without the gi, one is highly gi dependent... its a no brainer which one will transfer better to mma.

And yet it comes up all the time lol

Both arts are great for fighting, but obviously wrestling is more suited for MMA

 

[Kung Fu bb]

boxing/wreslting has won out over MT/judo/BJJ

 

[Kung Fu bb]

the best form of grappling for MMA is catch wrestling, hands down. unfortunately BJJ has a hold on the market for MMA grappling. Im a brown belt in BJJ Ive trained catch in Japan, their athletes are incredible. BJJ seldom focuses on realistic takedowns and aggressiveness

Damn! Guy is good.

 

[tramendous]

Bjj guy can where shoes too it's just more likely that he would turn them down

ya i dont think shoes would be a big deal anyways. they let you wear them in pride but i think if you had a weight advantage over opponent than you couldn't soccer kick people on the ground. in unified rules soccer kicks aint there so shoes would be fine but maybe not allow foot stomps with shoes lol.

 

[bhp02]

It seems a fairly common belief that judo is inferior to wrestling as an MMA base but is it necessarily accurate or does the much greater number of high level wrestlers that enter MMA compared to high level judokas just make it seem that way? We've seen some accomplished MMA wrestlers get thrown around by judokas - Shields by Lombard and Tate by Ronda, and Fedor took a good part of his grappling game from judo. Of course wrestling would have some advantages like more focus on shot takedowns, but is judo truly as inferior as some claim or might it see greater success if more top judokas started coming over?

wrestling is American sport taught in schools..
judo is a Japanese sport not popular in the US...so more fighter will have background in wrestling...judo is probably more relevant to fighting

 

[je suis Charles Martel]

As a base, wrestling outperforms judo. You can tell by watching fights and no matter how judo guys try they rarely manage to transfer the fight to the ground when they're fighting a wrestler. Judo has some unique and very effective moves, however. So if you borrow them and mix with your wrestling (which is much easier done than vice versa) then you're unstoppable in the clinch (even more so compared to when you were only a wrestler-oriented fighter).

 

[WARinsertname]

Judo today is extremely watered down and ill suited for MMA. I remember IJF banning techniques below the belt several years ago. If you're going to rely on nagewaza in a mostly upright position you're going to get tagged very badly.

Their submission game is more developed than in wrestling, but they aren't true submission masters because they have such limited time on the ground and are therefore unable to work any intricate submissions into their newaza game, at least not at a very high level. They are like, more explosive but far more limited BJJ players - which can work very very well, as we've seen in Ronda's case, but the limited TD varieties is still a huge problem, and had Ronda being going against better competition I believe her limited ground game would also be exposed.

It honestly depends on the school. I trained Judo up to brown belt at a school that devoted much time in newaza. Our sensei didn't stop teaching what he had learned simply because of rule changes. In his opinion, it weakened the students to not learn everything. Problem is international rules, they are the cause of the watering down of the art. It's one of the reasons I lost interest. It didn't suit my style much either, I had a thing for lower body attacks.

 

[LouisBolanos]

It honestly depends on the school. I trained Judo up to brown belt at a school that devoted much time in newaza. Our sensei didn't stop teaching what he had learned simply because of rule changes. In his opinion, it weakened the students to not learn everything. Problem is international rules, they are the cause of the watering down of the art. It's one of the reasons I lost interest. It didn't suit my style much either, I had a thing for lower body attacks.

Yes, international rules is what I'm referring to. Sure, your local school might have a completely different philosophy, but the judo practitioners there are not elite athletes who would ascend to the top of the MMA game either way, so that's not important. True elite judo players must budget their time and ability based on international competitions, they can't afford to waste time in areas that would not be useful a competitive setting, and that's why the international rule set steer the direction of elite judo, and that's what matters the most, as elite judokas are the ones who have a chance at success in MMA.

 

[WARinsertname]

Yes, international rules is what I'm referring to. Sure, your local school might have a completely different philosophy, but the judo practitioners there are not elite athletes who would ascend to the top of the MMA game either way, so that's not important. True elite judo players must budget their time and ability based on international competitions, they can't afford to waste time in areas that would not be useful a competitive setting, and that's why the international rule set steer the direction of elite judo, and that's what matters the most, as elite judokas are the ones who have a chance at success in MMA.

Well to be fair we had 2 successful judoka who won Canadian Nationals gold. One of them would have been an Olympian had he not torn his knees. Those 2 in particular spent much time focusing more standup than Newaza, even though they were quite amazing on the ground as well.

But yes, the so called "elite" will only focus on the rules that matter. Personally, I find them to be the opposite of elite. One dimensional is what I would call them. My sensei said Masahiko Kimura was the template for a perfect Judoka, because of how strong he was everywhere it went. I'd say I have to agree with that statement.

 

[superpunch]

Judo is the most effective martial in MMA. Everyone needs to know it otherwise they lose by submission very quickly. Royce Gracie used it to dominate men 200 lbs heavier than him in UFC 1.

BJJ is the real Judo. Modern "Judo" is just a bullshit ruleset designed to be entertaining for live audiences in the Olympics. The real Judo would have completely died out if it didn't survive in Brazil via Japanese immigrants ~100 years ago.

Tons of martial arts have died out: almost all Kung Fu forms, for example. Judo narrowly avoided that fate. Thank you BJJ.

 

[Taric]

The UFC is an American business and mostly has American fighters.
It's just logical that most of the roster are wrestlers.

I mean, if Teddy Riner walked into MMA right now he'd fuck a lot of people up.

 

[THECYNDlCATE]

Pure wrestling vs. Pure Judo means the Judoka armbars the wrestler....

A wrestler needs at least beginner level submission training to be competent against a Judoka on the ground.

Wrestling in America does teach submissions. Hell, the Twister is a wrestling move.

While it's certainly true that an armbar could happen, more times than not, they wouldn't get the chance before they are passed.