How hard would the best shot putters hit if they learnt boxing technique? | Page 2

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by BringBackTRTforFairness, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    The sports science for track and field events is very highly developed, with a deep tradition of experience to draw from. Those are some of the first places i look for novel material to poach or to corroborate ideas for developing athletic attributes that are also useful in combat sports.

    I would not necessarily say that someone who has been training the hammer throw or long jump their whole life would then suddenly be the best at throwing punches really hard if they tried, but i would say that conditioning methods used to become successful at those events are very amenable to incorporation in programing a conditioning regime for a combat sport athlete to hit harder.
     
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  2. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    A SHOT PUT GUY USES VERY SIMILAR MECHANICS AND THE EXACT SAME MUSCLE GROUPS IE HIPS AND 1 LEG AS A BOXER DOES FOR PUNCHING

    A SHOT PUT GUY TRAINS ALMOST 100% FOR POWER IT WOULD BE LIKE A BOXER ONLY TRAINING THE STRAIGHT RIGHT HAND AND NOTHING ELSE AND ALL THEY WOULD DO IS THROW THE RIGHT HAND OVER AND OVER AND BUILD STRENGTH N POWER AND TECHNIQUE IN ORDER TO THROW THAT RIGHT HAND HARDER

    THATS WHAT A SHOT PUT GUY DOES

    SO DO *****YOU******** THINK THEY COULD HIT AS HARD AS THE HARDEST BOXERS IF THEIR TECHNIQUE WAS UP TO THE SAME STANDARD? I WANT TO COMPARE THE CALIBER OF ATHLETE HERE

    DO YOU THINK RANDY BARNS COULD HIT AS HARD AS EARNIE SHAVERS AND COULD EARNIE SHAVERS THROW AS FAR AS RANDY BARNES? IF THEY BOTH MASTERED EACH OTHERS TECHNIQUE?
     
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  3. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    Because the East asian arent dominating the explosive and athletic sports.
     
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  4. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    I wonder how hard the overhands and hooks will be from the top tennis players.
     
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  5. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    lousy they dont use hip rotation
     
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  6. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    I think they do, but even still, once they do plus their upper body output.
     
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  7. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    [​IMG]

    dont p me off again squabbles im warning u
     
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  8. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
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    He has a lot of experience jerking off east asian men duh.....
     
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  9. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Towel88 White Belt

    Towel88
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    Look at all the top Olympic powerlifters all white and Asian, look at all the top sprinters, you are correct about the type of muscle correlating to race....
     
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  11. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    Actually whites are grossly underestimated for explosiveness, while a good amount are not explosive alot of champion high jumpers are white same with long jumpers, and the world record vertical leap is held by a white french guy, and the 10 yard dash is held in about equal amounts by white Olympic lifters and black sprinters

    Black people have longer legs, shorter torsos and bigger glutes on average its this that also makes them faster at the 100 meter sprint, but for shorter distances where long stride length is less important whites are just as good or better, also middle distance tends to favour whites for the intermediate fiber type

    so its not just the fiber type although its an accurate observation that west Africans are more likely to be explosive than whites on average but im just saying whites are very explosive too and that the 100 meter sprint isnt a good distance for white people to sprint at

    If there was a 10 yard dash, a 50 meter sprint and a 100 meter sprint and a 200 and a 400 800 10,000etc it could be white, white, black, black, white white, then east African for marathons which is a different type of people to western blacks as different as whites are from west africans

    The distances chosen for races are arbitrary ie there's nothing inherently fair about them and they are just chosen fairly randomly, if more distances were allowed you might see different results suiting different types of people

    One last thing to add is that a vertical leap is a better test of explosiveness than running because it doesn't depend on leg length, body type etc its just raw explosiveness correlating to fiber type and power and currently a white guy is the world record holder








    1 world record javelin



    1 world record shot put



    1 world record olympic lifter, not sure if it qualifies as explosiveness because its also massively strength based but its a hugely explosive sport too

    Ironic that the big hip fat boy body shape short legs n arms big torso isnt celebrated and yet its a big part of what makes us special



    Whites are DAMN good physically!! We are not 2nd place
     
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  12. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    The mechanics might be simular in some ways, but the difference in shot put mechanics and punching mechanics are still big. Shot putters also have different techniques individually. They are obviously big, strong and explosive guys, but how well it would transfer to punching is hard to say. The trajectory is different, it is manipulating an object vs a non object. Just as the best shot putter might not be the best javeling thrower, might not be the best pitchers, might not be the best punchers. Throwing and object is also different than punching with your hand.

    Notice how they all let their rear leg come off the ground and are basicly a little off balance when they break themselves? In their sport it's quite alright because all they are worried about is transferring the power into the object and when the object goes it doesn't matter that they are not connected to the ground anymore. They are letting go of the force created.

    You will never get a running start when throwing a punch, so you can't create power in the same way. It's better to be balanced and in contact with the ground when hitting something. You are not extending the force through and object, wanting it to travel far. You are creating force and then having it stop at the point of impact. It's just different mechanics.

    No doubt they could probably throw a mean overhand (especially pitchers as the trajectory is a little simular), but it's hard to say really. With modification there is no doubt they could throw with some mean power, but then again, so can someone who has been learned the proper boxing mechanics from the start.

    Now these guys would throw a MEAN hook lol:
     
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  13. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    Btw, Olympic sports are amazing.

    Not only are the diciplines thousands of years old with rich history, the knowledge and biomechanical prowess of the coaching staff and athletes is elite. It's the pinnacle of human ability.

    Beautiful stuff, and so much you can learn from, regardless of what other sport you do. Forget about these youtube VLOG fitness "experts", go straight to the source.
     
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  14. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    Well what about guys like Marciano he comes from a baseball background has a tremendous right hand, he says baseball helped alot and he was a good puncher right away, he was using a bat or a ball. Most people from a baseball background say it helps for boxing alot on the power side of things.

    Secondly throwing an object feels different certainly but it isnt much different at all, still hip rotation leg drive kinetic linking, infact they get boxers using bats and throwing the shot and medicine balls to improve punching power!


    You say a guy that throws the shot well may not throw a javelin well I say he will so long as the technique was of a good quality which is the main reason he wouldn't. Powerful explosive hips and legs are explosive hips and legs no matter if you are throwing a shot a ball or a fist

    I swing a bat and throw a ball well because I learnt how to throw a punch well, theres MASSIVE cross over HUGE

    The weight of the shot might be a good reason for why the cross over would be poor, but even with that I doubt it, if you can accelerate a heavy object fast, you can also accelerate a light object fast, perhaps faster since you are used to heavy loads, which is why they get boxers throwing the shot or medicine balls in the 1st place

    Trajectory doesn't mean much an uppercut or punching high is pretty simlar level of difference, an uppercut has an even higher trajectory in terms of if you throw it like Tyson he doesnt weight and channels the power almost vertically through the leg so again I think you are wrong on this, and if you are not wrong your reasoning/explanation certainly is




    You think he didnt throw that cell phone far because it weighs so much less than a javelin? Its all teh same stuff




    Thats a javelin thrower throwing a ball ridiculous speeds you think he couldn't throw a base ball super fast or punch with tremendous force compared to the average boxer? (when all he has done for decades is train power)

    Notice he didnt need a run up ;)
     
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  15. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    Marciano might have come from a baseball background, don't know if he was a pitcher or what, but again it's the overhand so it makes sense. I'm sure other guys have gone into boxing from a baseball background who did not have the power, or gritt really, that Marciano had. I'm sure I can find someone coming from vastly different backgrounds to boxing, have equally as much power.

    I'm not saying that the leg drive, hip rotation and so forth wouldn't help, I'm sure it would, but the mechanics are not the same. Delivering power can be done in a few different ways, but the exact precision of the motor synergism is what differentiates, and that matters a lot more than you might think. I said that the best shot putter might not be the best javelin thrower and so forth. You assert that he would do well (which is not what I argued against, but granted). He might, he might not. First of the specificity of body type and proportions play a role. There's is a reason why shot putters are a lot heavier. Secondly, and this is the main point, just because you can use leg drive and throw something in one sport, doesn't mean that you will necessarily be able to do as well in another.

    It's more than just hip rotation and transferring energy through the kinetic link. It's both the brain and muscles. It's the exact moment this muscles fires in synergy with this one, and that one breaks and the antagonist working here, so forth. The motor learning is different, and besides the obvious brain mapping, the muscles are primed to work at a specific lenght to perfect the specific task, if you do it enough.

    Using a bat is a bit different. It's more like using an axe, which I showed in the video. It will help with the hip rotation and mechanics no doubt. Still it's an add on to already existing punching technique, not a substitute. Medicin balls are also a bit different, because you are usually, at least attempting, to throw it against a wall or the ground and mainly use the SSC reflex. It's also easier to simulate the sport specific mechanics using a med ball, than a shotput technique. I see your point, and it's valid, but again the trajectory of something like a shot put, like throwing it upwards is very different from throwing a straight.

    Again, I'm not saying that it wouldn't help. I definitely think it would. I'm just arguing against that they would necessarily be among the biggest punchers, even with training.
     
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  16. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    No it doesn't there's is about as much difference between modern uppercut mechanics(which doesn't shift weight much) and straight right mechanics as there is between a standing shot put throw and a straight right.

    You dont suddenly lose much power if you throw the uppercut for the 1st time after youve mastered the straight right

    If you can use kinetic linking the hips and the leg all you have to do is learn the superficial new movements like the arm motion etc and you are at the same level of speed and power for the new motion as you are with the old motion more or less, because its fundamentally the same, its fundamentally hips leg kinetic linking for all these motions, thats it the core of speed and power in all of these sports

    As for body type, arm length height shoulder width etc that matters more for throwing than punching, you get hard punchers of all body types but throwers tend to be a bit more uniform, so that is an issue for a heavy hitting boxer trying to cross over into throwing rather than the other way around. But for punching you get all kinds of body shapes making great punchers. Like wise there are loads of boxers a huge amount with ideal body types for different types of throwing. So you made a fair point there but yours was totally exaggerated towards inaccuracy
     
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  17. 209since1978 Apathy is death

    209since1978
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    How much could boxers improve their power by training shot put is the question
     
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  18. Sano Brown Belt

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    I'm just going to qoute your post again because you updated it.

    Being able to accelerate a heavy object fast doesn't necessarily mean you can accelerate a light object (your hand) fast. The heavier the object, the more your own mass and maximal strength matters. It depends where it is on the force-velocity curve really, but that is a simplification. If they are close and the technique is simular? Sure.

    Explosiveness and speed are many things. Technique, power produciton, maximal strength, rate of force development, fiber contraction velocity, inner moment arms, nervous system. These things can attribute to speed and they can all vary from one person to the other, AND, they can fit one task better than another one. It all depends on the requirement of the task.

    To illustrate a few differences, look at the videos you posted here with the throwers. Hip turn and leg drive matters greatly, but notice the upper body. The ability to cock your shoulder back (unhindered ROM) and use your other arm as leverage matters just as much. In boxing, they would not be able to punch like that, so they would have to modify it down. Besides the other things that would have to be modified.

    I don't agree. If you look at a shotput, they start turning the other way, then making a half turn, having their other arm straight out as leverage, then they spin, transfer the weight, throw the arm forward and up, flick the wrist and keep spinning. It's a very complex technique that takes a lot of time to master. If you take a single segment out of shotput, which would be the weight transfer without the spin, then sure it would lead into punching, but at that point you might as well practice punching, or use another accessory exercise for hip turn.

    There would be no benefit to learning the details of shot putting.

    The upper body movements are definitely not superficial in boxing, just as they are not superficial in the olympic disciplines. I disagree that it's the same. You trivialising boxing AND throwing technique.

    I will concede that there could be a great carryover, but again it is exactly as you say. There are many ways to deliver power in boxing and there are several different types of power punchers. Shotputters might fit into one category of those, with extensive boxing training, but it's hardly reasonable to think that they would automaticly surpass the great hitters in boxing. They might, and they might not, it all depends on how well they adapt to punching something, which does indeed change the mechanics of delivering power. In the end it's a moot discussion really because power in a single punch alone, without other high level qualities, wont get you far at all.

    Btw, if what you say is true, then the biggest punchers would automaticly be the best javeling throwers, shot putters and discus throwers. Also, why do you not see the same person at the elite level in all of those?

    I can tell you this much, I can punch pretty hard, but I can't throw for shit.
     
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  19. BringBackTRTforFairness Blue Belt

    BringBackTRTforFairness
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    "Being able to accelerate a heavy object fast doesn't necessarily mean you can accelerate a light object like your hand fast. The heavier the object, the more your own mass and maximal strength matters "

    With any meaningful punch you are transferring alot of your bodyweight not just the hand. So a good puncher and a good shot put athlete are both accelerating a heavy mass. If you can accelerate a heavier mass fast then you can also accelerate a lighter (but still heavy) mass fast. It is also likely that you can throw it faster than someone who hasnt been training with heavier loads. This is why you squat to improve the vertical leap, more strength allows you to accelerate your body weight higher ie you become faster with more strength usually. Now if the weight difference was more significant there would be more of an argument here. (a shot only weighs 16 lbs about the same weight as a medicine ball that a boxer uses to increase the power and speed of his punches)

    A shot put guy cant out throw a javelin thrower though at Javelin because hes a heavyweight and heavyweights are usually slower. More speed and less bodyweight is needed for the lighter instrument.

    A heavyweight boxer though who is a puncher IS throwing alot of bodyweight. Shavers is throwing more weight around than Ali even though he is lighter, he is throwing a greater % of his weight into the punch and ali much less. Heavyweights are throwing more mass about in general too.

    This is also why you need to be lighter to throw a lighter object further because its not just the object you throw but also your own bodyweight. This is also why the fastest punchers are lighter in weight.

    So your argument holds true for a much lighter object needing more speed and less mass, but I am saying the resistance of the 16lb shot and the difference between that and a heavyweight boxer-puncher throwing around his own bodyweight isnt significant enough to say the shot put guy is too slow to punch hard. He may well punch harder and faster than the HW boxer if all he has to do now is throw his own bodyweight when he is used to throwing it and a shot put. Again thats why boxers throw the med balls and why a guy used to squat jumping with 30 kg will out jump a guy used to squat jumping with just his own bodyweight when he too uses just bodyweight



    "It's a very complex technique that takes a lot of time to master. If you take a single segment out of shotput, which would be the weight transfer without the spin, then sure it would lead into punching, but at that point you might as well practice punching, or use another accessory exercise for hip turn."

    My question was how hard would the best shot put athletes hit compared to the hardest hitters in boxing, if they learned how to punch well, and vice versa how well would the best punchers in boxing history throw?

    We already see a pattern where the cross over from baseball is very good for power in boxing, well I am wondering what the cross over from shot put is like

    Oh if you mean it would be better off punching to increase punching power you are right but not in the context of the rest of a shot put guys training ie he only trains his right side and he only trains for strength power and speed 24 7, thats it, a boxer has loads of other things to focus on no boxer devotes 100% of his efforts to speed and power for his right hand, thats why I think they would have huge cross over power, and the difference in mechanics is not significant enough to reduce the cross over by much because spinning after you throw etc thats just because more momentum was used and you cant stop the spin, the main power is still from kinetic linking the leg and the hips , the main power source is not different.
    e t
    To illustrate a few differences, look at the videos you posted here with the throwers. Hip turn and leg drive matters great, but notice the upper body. The ability to cock your shoulder back (unhindered ROM) and use your other arms as leverage matters just as much. In boxing, they would not be able to punch like that, so they would have to modify it down. Besides the other things that would have to be modified.


    No you are putting a great significance on upper body motion creating power, the upper body motion is trivial for all these sports because only the lower body contains the power, sure there are a few levers to exploit in the upper body but those levers are powered by the lower body, for the most part the upper body in all these sports is relaxed and almost limp, they all have a unique start position to amplify the levers for the particular form, but all upper bodies are merely (or mostly) thrown by the lower body. Again the main power source is leg, hip kinetic linking, the upper body IS trivial, except for the length of its levers, the levers being more of an issue for throwing hard/far (for some throwing sports not all) they are not so much of an issue for punching hard.
     
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  20. Soul Rebel 2 Black Belt

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    Every few months we should have a vote to see which member should be banned.
     
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