Holy Gracie Combatives

[nni]

Purple cotton waist-band LMFAO! They would call him Faixa Frouxa in Brazil. Ask Drac. lol

That's brilliant.

 

[Supereem]

Tell us which barra you trained at and who you recieved your purple belt from. Who is your Gracie barra instructor that believed or taught in this manner :" BJJ has a focus on the result -- who cares how pretty my arm bar is as long as the guy taps.". Also if you are a Barra student you will know that Carlihnos GRACIE is the head of Barra and it is no less GJJ than Rorions school. Heck if you think about it Barra and Humaita are the only "Real" Gracie schools that do both traditional and modern bjj.

I don't think that matters much to the GJJ purists. If you look at it, most of the GJJ guys do not consider the Carlos Gracie lineage to be pure GJJ. First of all they do not think Carlos had anything to do with inventing BJJ, and was like Helio's assistant (lol), and secondly, they think the Carlson and Carlos Jr/Rolls lineages moved away from Helio's "pure" style, regardless if they are still Gracie's or not.

I think its kinda ironic that they say this. In terms of MMA, Carlson's side has produced all the best fighters, and today his lineage through BTT/ATT/Black House are the most dominant BJJ based MMA teams in the world. In terms of sport BJJ, Barra and its offshoots (Alliance, Brasa, Atos) are dominant and have scored an overwhelming more amount of points in the Mundials than Humaita and friends. The best thing Helio's side did recently was introduce BJJ through Rickson and Royce, but they cant really cruise on that forever.

I am kinda playing the devil's advocate here, and do disrespect to anyone from a Helio lineage, I am not suggesting you are inferior (after all Rickson was his son right?) but I feel that I should since I think Rorian's a dick, for too many reasons to physically list in a simple sherdog post.

 

[slideyfoot]

I think you stereotype BJJ when you define it like that. BJJ is a broad term, with many different approaches to teaching. Here are some counter examples

Yep, and it is something Romulo Barral really emphasised when I asked him about teaching methodology a while ago:

You know, a lot of places, they still don

 

[aunshi189]

There is one thing, and only one thing, that I have taken from this thread.

And that is surprise that GJJ Fighter plays that lame sport basketball. Personally I only play the "street proof"* version with slaps and kicks. You're missing out dude.


*as certified by KSlice inc. tm.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

If you look at it, most of the GJJ guys do not consider the Carlos Gracie lineage to be pure GJJ. First of all they do not think Carlos had anything to do with inventing BJJ, and was like Helio's assistant (lol), and secondly, they think the Carlson and Carlos Jr/Rolls lineages moved away from Helio's "pure" style, regardless if they are still Gracie's or not.

I think your generalising slightly.. Sure their might be family disputes, but heard many a time high praise coming from one side of the family regarding the other...
Also they are all family at he end of the day. Carlos Gracie jr, Rolls and Rickson all trained together back in the old days in brazil.

Rickson, Rolyer, Renzo and Ryan all trained together for PRIDE events... Kyra has recently been training with rickson also.

Royce and Renzo are very close, Renzo also wrote a book with Rolyer. Also Relson son (name?) trained with Renzo for a while

Rodrigo and Royce have schools together.. So they do respect each others BJJ..

The only one who seems on the outer is Carlson gracie ...

In terms of sport BJJ, Barra and its offshoots (Alliance, Brasa, Atos) are dominant and have scored an overwhelming more amount of points in the Mundials than Humaita and friends. The best thing Helio's side did recently was introduce BJJ through Rickson and Royce, (NO ROYLER????) but they cant really cruise on that forever.

well you could just as well argue that Barra and it's offshoots are due to Helio as he was both Rolls and Carlos gracie jr teacher.

 

[johnkreese]

It lives! I knew this thread would never die!

 

[GSparky]

It lives! I knew this thread would never die!

johnkreese, I haven't seen you on here in a while. This whole time, I thought that you were "Calibur."

 

[GSparky]

I love Gracie University & I do wish that more websites replicated this style but in their own way. What I mean by that is that I love that Gracie University displays their whole style in a curriculum. Every lesson is given a proper amount of time & the student is given different ways of training the moves.

There are other websites that have basically what you would call a move database but I wish that those websites would be organized in a curriculum. Usually they are organized by position but I personally prefer moves that are organized by cirriculum.

 

[Neuro]

"it still moves"

 

[lechien]

I love Gracie University & I do wish that more websites replicated this style but in their own way. What I mean by that is that I love that Gracie University displays their whole style in a curriculum. Every lesson is given a proper amount of time & the student is given different ways of training the moves.

There are other websites that have basically what you would call a move database but I wish that those websites would be organized in a curriculum. Usually they are organized by position but I personally prefer moves that are organized by cirriculum.

the Gracie University Combative i.e blue belt is based on the 40 classes format that Helio Gracie taught on a private class bases. at completion of the program, then he will be a blue belt.

While I can understand the need for a curriculum as a help to learn JJ, I do not think one should learn as such.

It will just be a MC Dojo BS where you just need to show couple of move for the next belt.

 

[GSparky]

the Gracie University Combative i.e blue belt is based on the 40 classes format that Helio Gracie taught on a private class bases. at completion of the program, then he will be a blue belt.

While I can understand the need for a curriculum as a help to learn JJ, I do not think one should learn as such.

It will just be a MC Dojo BS where you just need to show couple of move for the next belt.

I completely understand where you are coming from but another way that I look at it is if a specific school like lets say Gracie Barra releases their moves on a DVD. The good thing about this curriculum is that I know that I'm not missing anything. A fear that I have with most instructionals is that it's a "Best Of" style that shows a list of moves for a certain position but it's maybe only a quarter of all the techniques that that specific instructor knows.

I enjoy cirriculum based instructional DVD's but I enjoy DVD's by instructors that also try to show everything they know in a manner such as showing their moves in a basic, intermediate & advanced format somewhat like what Gracie Barra has been doing. I haven't yet seen the Roy Dean DVD's yet but the idea of what he is doing is something that I enjoy.

But I do see where you are coming from.

 

[lechien]

I completely understand where you are coming from but another way that I look at it is if a specific school like lets say Gracie Barra releases their moves on a DVD. The good thing about this curriculum is that I know that I'm not missing anything. A fear that I have with most instructionals is that it's a "Best Of" style that shows a list of moves for a certain position but it's maybe only a quarter of all the techniques that that specific instructor knows.

I enjoy cirriculum based instructional DVD's but I enjoy DVD's by instructors that also try to show everything they know in a manner such as showing their moves in a basic, intermediate & advanced format somewhat like what Gracie Barra has been doing. I haven't yet seen the Roy Dean DVD's yet but the idea of what he is doing is something that I enjoy.

But I do see where you are coming from.

learning BJJ can be very chaotic in a school format as well.

You just get to learn the technique of the week and a couple of variation so getting extra info via watching vids is vital and is an excellent tool.

I agree that there are not enough "basic/fundamental" dvd and it seems that it is the norms for a famous BJJ star to release a DVD of his best signature moves which could be confusing for a beginner.

I think the way to learn or create a learning line would be to follow the JJ method.
3 tkd
3 pass the guard/half guard.
3 attack from guard,half guard,side control, KOB, mount, back control
submission defenses
3 reversal/ escapes from different positions

Once you know the basics, get a training partner to put some 16 ounces and ask him to beat you up and only use JJ to defend and submit.


the list goes on and on

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I know this has not been updated for a few months, but I would like to objectively set the record straight for both BJJ and the Gracie Combatives Program. Many people here are not informed enough about the point of the Gracie University online training. It is NOT the case you can just mail any video of their techniques and they will mail out belts to all who send in a fee and video. The video evaluation has specific guidelines and paying attention to detail is essential.

It doesn't matter what guidelines they use to grade a video. Correspondence rank advancement doesn't work. Jiujitsu is an art of application. If you as an instructor have never met your student or rolled with him to see him apply his skills, how will you evaluate him. The best you can gleam from a video is an idea of what he knows but nothing about what he can actually do.

Here I will lay out the difference between both BJJ and the Gracie university online program, which includes the combatives program as well. I have trained at a Gracie Barra affiliated school for six years and earned a purple belt. I do both prgrams! The Gracie Barra I will address as BJJ and the Gracie university as GJJ as many have done here already. BJJ really doesn't have a set lesson plan that students can know in advance what the lessons will be or what techniques will be learned in a set month. It is pretty much up to the instructor.

Barra has a fundamentals curriculum and an advanced curriculum.

So you can learn more techniques than me per se if you have a better instructor. You can learn the coolest sweeps and counters if your instructor happens to be a better or more informed instructor than mine instuctor or the next guy's instuctor. So that is a negative guys.

A huge negative to a correspondence course is that everyone learns the same thing from the same DVD. Because people are different in temperament and physique, different people will end up doing the same technique differently, making adjustments to fit a given technique to their game and themselves. You need an instructor for this variability, someone who knows your game, has watched your progression, and knows how to guide you. Unfortunately, a DVD cannot do this for you.

The bad experience many peole have is that the live rolling comes with pain and injury when rolling with jerks. Jerk is the guy who is going all out to win --even cheat and not care just as long as he doesn't get tapped. All BJJ schools have at least one of these guys.

Those guys tend to have enough ego issues that they don't last long in the academy. Even if they stick around, that is not the fault of BJJ as a system, that is the fault of the instructor for failing to notice that someone is rolling like a jerk and injuring people. It is also partly on the students for not speaking up about it either.

That aside, many BJJ guys don't care about quality or form in techniques: the form is not correct due to speed of the technique being applied to get the guy to tap. In rolling, we try to tap the guy quickly before he can counter it so form is often sacrificed. The main goal is to tap the guy and not care how the submission looks (ie, wrong grip, hips too high when stepping over, no total control of the opponent,etc). GJJ has a focus on repetition to imporve form and over all effectiveness of a submission. GJJ requires both form and the result to be positive. BJJ has a focus on the result -- who cares how pretty my arm bar is as long as the guy taps. GJJ makes the claim that art cares about form: what can be better than a beautifully executed arm bar and a submission to boot? Art requires control over your own body as well as control over the opponent. How many top BJJ experts have sloppy form? I have not seen any. So at the high levels form is usually there for both BJJ and GJJ. The difference is GJJ tries to instill quality form EARLY and to keep it. BJJ won't get that till purple or brown.

This might be the case at white belt. But only at white belt. After that, goon strength and sacrificing technique stops working, you actually have to improve technique to have success against your peers in competition. I have yet to see a BJJ academy that doesn't stress the details in a technique, even for the beginners. If a practitioner fails to listen closely for these details, well then that's the practitioner's fault, not BJJ's fault as a system, and undoubtedly he will have more difficulty after the white belt level.

BJJ you sort have to figure out things many times for yourself. GJJ makes learning easy and makes it impossible NOT to understand.

There is this concept called asking questions. You cannot do it with a DVD. You can do it with an instructor. The only time you have to figure out things for yourself in BJJ is when you don't ask questions during drilling, positional drills/rolls, or open mat.

GJJ makes the claim knowledge and Understanding is a different mindset from the BJJ counterpart. Part of that is Rorion's claim that a GJJ guy doesn't have to be athletic and have the skill to beat a biger, stronger and more athletic opponent. This is huge. No one addresses Rorion's claim. Is it true or not?

It is true to a certain degree only when the bigger, stronger, more athletic opponent has less skill than the smaller practitioner. Also have to consider that with the converse situation, well anybody can get caught.

GJJ teaches combatives to beginners and then goes through the master cycle. The master cycle teaches more advanced moves according to rank. Each stripe learns more than the previous one. This like in the old days where brown belts learn more than the lower ranks. Things are rank specific. BJJ is not rank specific. You learn what ever the instructor likes. So there is no separate rank lessons.

That isn't true, Barra has beginner and advanced classes. Most other BJJ associations/schools have that as well. I have seen schools with smaller enrollment that hold classes for all ranks, that still teach different techniques to beginners and advanced in a single class or even just more advanced variations for the latter.

GJJ claims that given enough repetitons the techniques will be automatic just like Katas in the other Martial arts. These automatic reactions should be in the quality of form as practiced. So the quality should be high in form and execution. No one can argue that the older arts did not practice this way. Practice thousands of repetitions with no resistance then gradually add resistance to 100 percent all out resistance -- being a jerk opponet. This is what GJJ is doing. BJJ does not. BJJ is to roll enough for you get the technique to work.

Completely untrue. I have never seen a BJJ school that just teaches moves and then goes straight into rolling. There is always drilling with minimal resistance, then adding resistance back in gradually to challenge the technique while in an isolated setting, then POSITIONAL rolling which adds some stochastity back into the drill, then finally free rolling.

Just "rolling enough to get the technique to work" is ridiculous, it would create so much room for bad habits. I have yet to see a school teach in this manner that you describe.

 

[sproggdawg]

Ive got first hand experience with the Gracie Combatives program and I think its excellent. Ive got the DVD set, Im a member of the online Gracie University, AND ive actually spent a week training Combatives with Rener. As a BJJ purple belt and a Police Officer I can honestly say that I think the combatives program is the absolute best of Brazilian jiu jitsu. Yes the ads are cheesy and the online belt promotion sounds suspect, but the program itself is fantastic and in reality the tests are no joke.

I would always suggest live training over just distance/correspondence learning. But the DVD's and the university site are done so well that you can learn everything you need to know for the program by simply watching the lessons. They take into account size differences as well as different body types, and through the online program you can ask questions and the Gracies will respond. If you can find a Certified Training Center then thats obviously the best thing. But if not theres nothing wrong with supplementing your regular BJJ training with the Combatives lessons.

 

[johnkreese]

johnkreese, I haven't seen you on here in a while. This whole time, I thought that you were "Calibur."

I was working two jobs, going to school, training a lot, spending time with the woman and riding my bike all over the place -- just keeping busy and trying to drop the last 30lbs. Nope! I'm not Calibur! Did you join a school yet?

 

[GSparky]

I was working two jobs, going to school, training a lot, spending time with the woman and riding my bike all over the place -- just keeping busy and trying to drop the last 30lbs. Nope! I'm not Calibur! Did you join a school yet?

No I haven't but I will be down in Houston, TX to watch an MMA event on 11/05/2010 & I'll be taking 1 class at Drac's & hopefully 1 class at Texas World Class Boxing.

 

[johnkreese]

No I haven't but I will be down in Houston, TX to watch an MMA event on 11/05/2010 & I'll be taking 1 class at Drac's & hopefully 1 class at Texas World Class Boxing.

Awesome man, good luck. Drac and his crew will help you out with your holes and technique -- you're going to become addicted.

 

[thetoyboy]

Hello again,

I would like to address some comments posted after my long post about the difference between BJJ and GJJ. Yes, there is a difference! EternalRag, I described what many people experirence in BJJ at least in NY. Perhaps I was not clear. Curriculum means a schedule for the students to see to know what they will learn in advance. It should not be the case you step on the mat and THEN find out. I have never seen a BJJ school hand out a syllabus with a month of lessons printed on it. Perhaps I was not specific enough about how BJJ is commonly taught in my experience. The instructor teaches about 3 moves or four in the entire lesson. Move one is taught and demonstrated about 3 times. Now the students practice / drill. Then Move two like above; the students practice / drill. Move three like above; the students practice / drill. Then open mat begins and students roll. Just to be clear the practice drill is not forever. You get maybe 3 - 5 repetitions in then switch. You may have one partner or up to three partners. The practice / drill is maybe 15 to 20 minutes tops. I reckon less time than that in reality. So how is doing maybe 15 reps with a new technique good enough to roll on a resisting partner? This is the point of GJJ is taking! GJJ ( I refer to the Gracie University) focuses on the repetitions and not rolling. My point is rolling cover a lot more time than learning the techniques and practice / drill combined. EternalRag, each school is run differently as I noted already and each teacher instructs differently. So your school might be better than my school cause you train differently, your instructor has more experience, more knowledge, is cooler than my instructor. I mentioned this already and stated that GJJ puts all people on the same page within their rank. BJJ has a curriculum? Can you post an example? Every school I have been in does not hand out a lesson syllabus printed on it where I know I will be learning mount escapes for example. Come on guy, you know full well you have no clue what today's lesson is before you step on the mat. Perhaps the instructor knows but the students usually do not. Show me a sample please. Questions are possible in BJJ. However, be realistic; this is not a private lesson where you can ask all the questions you like. You and the other students must share time in asking questions. Then he will not spend too much time on questions anyway. That is what privates are for! So you can ask brief questions sure. Sometimes it is not enough to help when rollling with a better opponent. The BJJ details are Not in the detail Renner and Ryron give by far. You must not know what the GJJ is claiminng; they claim the instruction is equivalent to a private lesson with a black belt instructor at the Torrence academy. Notice "private" is NOT the same as group plan lessons. Privates are alway MORE money. Why do you think that is? If the same detail was in both lessons why would privates cost more? This should be a no brainer.


The lineage is NOT the same either. People are claiming "it is all BJJ" which is NOT what Rorion is claiming at all. People need to pay attention to details more. All instructors and many people in brazil probably learned from a Gracie from the start but it is not the same as sying it is all jujitsu. Rorion makes a specific claim. He claims that his father Helio had to change over 80 percent or more of the original techniques and when Helio was asked about the original techniques Helio could not remember the originals because they were ment for a person who was stronger, more flexible, or more athletic. Helio had to change the originals to fit his smaller fram and lack of physical ability and strength. THUS HELIO originated another art! WHy because he had to change 80percent or more of the orignial Japannesse techniques. Carlos Gracie, Helio's older brother, learned from a judo champ named Maeda taught Kano juijitsu or "Judo". Carlos did not teach what Helio taught. This explains WHY Helio is recognized more than Carlos Gracie. Helio is recognized as a Grandmaster and NOT Carlos. Carlson and Carlos Jr taught what their father taught. Helio taught his sons HIS modifications. Their is a difference. The sport side came from Carlos Jr and Carlson Gracie. Carlos Jr is said to have created or originated the idea of a brazilian Jujitsu Federation for all schools in brazil and teach the same techniques in the same manner. Helio was for this at one time, but latter on resigned as sport techniques are not self defense oriented. Read the combatives blue belt handbook which is free to print. Rorion spells this out clearly. Helio was more self defense oriented and BJJ is more sport oriented which may cause a false sense of security in a real fight. GJJ is self defense oriented according to Rorion and NOBODY addresses Rorion's claim. NOBODY addresses the claim that Helio changed the original techniques Carlos taught and that is why Helio is recognized as the founder of Gracie Juijitsu as opposed to Kano jujitsu or JUDO.