going vegan or vegetarian!!!

[GJJNY]

/hippie athletes.

?

 

[STWACOACH**]

That's funny hahaha. You have a PM dude.

 

[TheCuttlefish]

I will settle it.

It is possible to get the complete nutrition an athlete needs as a vegan. However, it can be a pain in the ass to get complete protiens and you will be forced to consume more carbs. Therefore, while it can be done if your conscience demands it, it is not the optimal method of athletic dieting and not specificly useful in weight loss.

Anyway, why do this? For various reasons. Some of us prefer not to slaughter innocent beings for the flavor of their decaying flesh, etc.

I'm not sure if you are refering to yourself here or others but there are only two arguable positions you can take as a vegetarian

1. It's heathier
2. The factory farm system is cruel and/or environmentaly destructive

Anyone who says it's immoral to eat a living creature should be shot out of a cannon into the sun.

 

[Groucho]

Maybe, after you win your next fight, you should eat your opponent

umm, you do realize that humans are the only great primates that don't do this??

 

[bacon]

Cows are delicious.

 

[Sinister]

Some of us prefer not to slaughter innocent beings for the flavor of their decaying flesh, etc.

lol@you

Some of us aren't pretentious enough to believe we're above and beyond the Life and Death cycles of this planet.

BTW - plants = innocent beings.

I like to throw chlorophyll in the faces of card-carrying agenda animal rights activists.

 

[Sinister]

So, because vegan/vegetarian athletes aren't common, the successful ones are genetically adapted to such a diet? And, the rest of us can't count on this adaptation? Come on. This is junk 'science' of the worst kind. How did you reach such a conclusion?

There aren't a lot of Buddhists in the NFL either, but that doesn't mean Buddhism is contraindicated for professional football. Correlation does not imply causation.

Do you have a background in science or logic/rhetoric?

Talk about Junk science rhetoric, the example you throw out doesn't even directly apply in context. You're doing a very good job of making bold attempts to sound smarter than you are, and reaching for your arguments with vagueness.

Nutrition plays a crucial role in Professional Athletics, especially on an elite level. Food powers the body, we know this because of plethoras of scientific evidence that back it up. Religion on the other-hand, there's no conclusive data even in the psychological field (where this crap would be appropriate) that it somehow strengthens the mind or spirit to make an athlete better. Point? Religion = irrelevant, nutrition = critical.

Athletes HAVE to be mindful of their nutritional habits or else they lose and risk their careers. So yes, their tendencies are actually a good indicator of what is correct and incorrect. Yes they're all a bit different phsyiologically, but a line can be established by comparing caloric needs, and macronutrient ratios.

And no, the rest of you cannot count on genetic adaptation, you don't share DNA with those who have genetically adapted to being athletes and consuming non-animal sources of protein (mind you, I don't know of a single elite VEGAN athlete, and vegetarianism allows for animal products).

I don't know why this is so hard. If you take the current best thinking on what is required of a diet for athletic performance (strength, endurance athlete, whatever), those requirements can be met without consuming animal products.

If you're going to make a statement that goes against the established Maxims, it's up to you to back them with evidence. Otherwise, THIS is true junk science. Anything is "possible" in the Zen sense of the word, but the fact is there's no standard that proves it, unless you've come up with or discovered one (which I'd genuinely love to see, because I do think people should be afforded the opportunities to prove their ideals valid).

Oh yeah, and as for my background, I've worked in the Supplement Industry for 6 years now, train to fight, and am logging (albeit slowly) classroom hours towards being a Licensed Dietician. Not that that's here nor there.

 

[STWACOACH**]

That's what isso funny about the protein debate article. Cambell takes the plant protein side, as Cordain does not. Cordain posts refs after refs, studies etc, Cambell, hardly anything. Don't get me wrong I respect both, but for vegetarians I believe that should be a must read.

 

[Igorot Warrior]

Coach,

Though we disagree on the validity of a diet based more around plants (not just for protein reasons) than red meat...I think we can both agree that the source of where you get your food is very important to your health. The more natural and less processed...the more better for you.

I looked at some of your posts on organic, grass fed meat...and I didn't know the stats on the increase on Omega-3 due to the cows eating grass were that good. I'll still continue to include a steak from a grass fed cow every now and then. Steak on a grill is still one of my favorites.

But for the bulk of my daily protein...I'll still stick to wild salmon, free range chicken, soy protein, egg whites, almonds, egg protein powder, ezekiel bread, spirulina, and quinoa.

I guess I just feel that most people don't enough fruits and vegetables and way too much red meat (hamburgers, steaks, prime rib, pulled pork sandwiches - yeah...I know they taste so damn good). But like I said before...the source of your food is very important...whether you are a vegan...vegitarian...or omnivore.

Great so about sdix cases of healthy vegetarian/hippie athletes. No how do we account for the 1,000's of unhealthy hippies?

It's simple. Can you do it as a vegetarian? Sure you can, should you? Well guess it depends on your moral dilema lol.

But let me say this, to get all the complete proteins, healthy fats, etc and perform at a top level is a pain in the ass as opposed tro folloowing a paleo/zone/coach/Berardi protocol. And for what? better performance? Ya right, I will take any of my guys I trained with mine or Berardi's diet, against the same number of vegetarians, same routines weights three times a week, aloing with MMA, and show me over twelve weeks who has better gains etc,.

As for feeling better, well i feel better since I switched to organic meat, and I feel better all the time,. That's not the issue, athletic performance is.

If you want to spend hours on end making meals, making sure your amino profiles are complete along with everything else, welll you must have a ton of time on your hands. Which is also the reason i don't do diet plans for vegetarians.

Sure a few MMA or pro athletes may be vegans, but DO NOT try to tout it as a sure fire weight loss routine, I already posted the study on red meat diet based versus seafood based protein consumption. But alas almost no one here reads studies, they just go off of PETA propaganda bull shit

 

[KPB]

Talk about Junk science rhetoric, the example you throw out doesn't even directly apply in context. You're doing a very good job of making bold attempts to sound smarter than you are, and reaching for your arguments with vagueness.

You're much too young to be so smug. How am I vague. You can meet all the requirements of an athletic performance supporting diet without eating animal products. I can't be any more clear than that. Lose the ad-hominem attacks and make a point.

And no, the rest of you cannot count on genetic adaptation, you don't share DNA with those who have genetically adapted to being athletes and consuming non-animal sources of protein (mind you, I don't know of a single elite VEGAN athlete, and vegetarianism allows for animal products).

You are making weird and wild statements about DNA. Did you sleep through biology (required to become a dietitian, I hope). All humans share the same basic set of genes and genomic regulatory regions that control the development and maintenance of their biological structures and processes.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=3396 Now you've heard of one Vegan athlete. But, no denying there aren't very many.

If you're going to make a statement that goes against the established Maxims, it's up to you to back them with evidence. Otherwise, THIS is true junk science. Anything is "possible" in the Zen sense of the word, but the fact is there's no standard that proves it, unless you've come up with or discovered one (which I'd genuinely love to see, because I do think people should be afforded the opportunities to prove their ideals valid).

What "standard" are you looking for?

There is nothing for me to back up. Name the requirements of an athletic performance sustaining diet, and those requirements can be met from non-animal sources. You can even avoid high soy consumption, if you wish. This isn't about "Zen" or "ideals." It's about nutrition. What in the hell are you talking about?

 

[KPB]

That's what isso funny about the protein debate article. Cambell takes the plant protein side, as Cordain does not. Cordain posts refs after refs, studies etc, Cambell, hardly anything. Don't get me wrong I respect both, but for vegetarians I believe that should be a must read.

I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, but it looks like an interesting article and I will read it. Thanks for the link.

 

[STWACOACH**]

Coach,

Though we disagree on the validity of a diet based more around plants (not just for protein reasons) than red meat...I think we can both agree that the source of where you get your food is very important to your health. The more natural and less processed...the more better for you.

I looked at some of your posts on organic, grass fed meat...and I didn't know the stats on the increase on Omega-3 due to the cows eating grass were that good. I'll still continue to include a steak from a grass fed cow every now and then. Steak on a grill is still one of my favorites.

But for the bulk of my daily protein...I'll still stick to wild salmon, free range chicken, soy protein, egg whites, almonds, egg protein powder, ezekiel bread, spirulina, and quinoa.

I guess I just feel that most people don't enough fruits and vegetables and way too much red meat (hamburgers, steaks, prime rib, pulled pork sandwiches - yeah...I know they taste so damn good). But like I said before...the source of your food is very important...whether you are a vegan...vegitarian...or omnivore.

I think you are off base in my nutritional beliefs. I totally support all meat eating etc. but if you were to ask any client of mine that has used me for diets along with training, I make all of them eat -10 cups at least of fiberous veggies a day. I don't think people eat enough of them either, but my dieting thoughts are way different than most.

 

[Igorot Warrior]

My bad then.

I think you are off base in my nutritional beliefs. I totally support all meat eating etc. but if you were to ask any client of mine that has used me for diets along with training, I make all of them eat -10 cups at least of fiberous veggies a day. I don't think people eat enough of them either, but my dieting thoughts are way different than most.

 

[Sinister]

You're much too young to be so smug. How am I vague. You can meet all the requirements of an athletic performance supporting diet without eating animal products. I can't be any more clear than that. Lose the ad-hominem attacks and make a point.

The point is you're stating a theory without a how-to. You set the table, got all your silverware in-place, and there's no food.

You are making weird and wild statements about DNA. Did you sleep through biology (required to become a dietitian, I hope). All humans share the same basic set of genes and genomic regulatory regions that control the development and maintenance of their biological structures and processes.

Weird and wild statements about DNA, are we talking about the same DNA? The DNA that also determines height, eye-color, and accounts for the DIFFERENCES in people, including in terms of athletic potential? That's the DNA I'm talking about. The variances when it comes to athletics are more significant than base similarities.

There is nothing for me to back up. Name the requirements of an athletic performance sustaining diet, and those requirements can be met from non-animal sources. You can even avoid high soy consumption, if you wish. This isn't about "Zen" or "ideals." It's about nutrition. What in the hell are you talking about?

Alright, most athletes follow a 30-30-40 ratio of macronutrient requirements. 30% of daily caloric intake from protein, 30% from fats, and 40% from carbs. Slight variations occur, like switching out the carb percentage for protein, 40-30-30. So please, enlighten us on your menu of accomplishing either of these basic macronutrient percentages as a vegan, with quality complete sources of amino acids contained within the protein (and not speculated quality, quality that's established and accepted) with no animal products whatsoever. That'll be a good starting point I think.

P.S. - I said elite level Vegan athlete. Mac Danzig is hardly that. There actually are a few Vegan lower-level athletes.

 

[Fedorable]

Holy shit man, don't be stupid, if we don't eat steak, then the cow population would be out of control and eat all our crops and shiit on our cars. You should eat at least one piece of steak every week or two weeks at most to help this growing concern of....mine!

*pants heavily*

 

[noise666]

If you can't see the coorelation between fighting and beating the hell out of someone, along with killing something(as deaths have occured plenty of times in the ring) well I can't help you./

Sorry - I do not see the correlation. You know why? There is none. First of all, what we do is a sport. Hunting and factory farming isn't a sport. For it to be a sport, both sides have to know they are in the game. On top of that, they have to want to be in the game. If you want to level the playing field, I say with hunting, kill with your bear hands. Shit - I'll even let you use a pocket knife for a lil' plus. You'll lose.

In factory farms, how about we take away the acid pools, shackles, and guns? Simply choke out the cow then rip his neck open with your hands/nails. Oh, once again we'll lose. Instead we develop these machines that do it for us. That's pretty sad.

KK - playing the card huh? I'm playing no card. Don't get me wrong, when I first went vegan, I was much more militant. Now, I just have simple civil conversation with people in regards to this topic. I never bring it up, only respond to it. That being said, plants do not have a CNS. Come on, because of chlorophyll, we shouldn't eat plants either? If we're going to say things like that, the simple response is that we should stay away from whatever we want that's going to making a difference in the world. Not eating animals and supporting these huge factory farms is doing wonders for my mental status as well as the environment.

Fedorable - eating a steak a week may be keeping a cow dead but if we were to all stop eating meat, it would not be over population for long. People use this debate when it comes to hunting and it doesn't work. Yes if we just set all the cows in farms free and let them roam, it would be a little chaos. When it comes to deer, if you didn't know, the breed at certain times of the year, but only if their habitat supports it. If there is no room to breed, they won't, or they'll re-locate. Of course we're also destroying everything in our path and eventually there will be no room at all for any animals except humans.

The main point of this thread is to answer the initial question. Can a vegetarian/vegan diet help you cut weight and be healthy. Yes it can, if done right. Same with a omnivorous diet, if done right. Bacon & Eggs for breakfast, McDonalds for lunch and steak, potatoes, and broccoli for dinner won't do it.

Hey - I still say to each their own. It sounds like everyone debating this whole thing realizes what goes on in the industry, what the detriments to the environment are and what can be done yet still continue to eat meat/dairy. Fine - go ahead. If it's good for you, it's good for me I suppose. I'm not forcing propaganda down anyones throat. Simple fact is - I feel better about what I'm doing for myself and the planet. I continue to strive to even more.

Good luck everyone. Sorry for the long post. This is fun though :- )

 

[Sinister]

KK - playing the card huh? I'm playing no card. Don't get me wrong, when I first went vegan, I was much more militant. Now, I just have simple civil conversation with people in regards to this topic. I never bring it up, only respond to it. That being said, plants do not have a CNS. Come on, because of chlorophyll, we shouldn't eat plants either? If we're going to say things like that, the simple response is that we should stay away from whatever we want that's going to making a difference in the world. Not eating animals and supporting these huge factory farms is doing wonders for my mental status as well as the environment.

If a CNS is all that gives vegetarians/vegans a clear-conscience than to me that's just hypocrisy. No one knows what it's like to be a plant, for all we know they have some extra-sensory perception and know what it's like to suffer, and suffer needlessly. Not to mention that deforestation is doing as much damage to the World as factory farming.

Look honestly I don't give a fuck what a person does. It's when they try and attach agendas to it that irks me. If you want to specifically protest something, alright, fair enough, but when people act like it somehow makes them more enlightened than the average human is when it bugs the shit out of me.

 

[bacon]

As often as this topic gets debated, I have yet to see someone, from either side, change their mind.

 

[noise666]

If a CNS is all that gives vegetarians/vegans a clear-conscience than to me that's just hypocrisy. No one knows what it's like to be a plant, for all we know they have some extra-sensory perception and know what it's like to suffer, and suffer needlessly. Not to mention that deforestation is doing as much damage to the World as factory farming.

Look honestly I don't give a fuck what a person does. It's when they try and attach agendas to it that irks me. If you want to specifically protest something, alright, fair enough, but when people act like it somehow makes them more enlightened than the average human is when it bugs the shit out of me.

KK - I couldn't agree more man! You got something from my posts that basically said I'm more enlightened than the next person? Come on, I've never pushed that agenda. If it came across that way, then I apologize. I've said a number of times - I can not stand egos, and I never hold myself higher than anyone. That's one reason I am vegan, I just feel like it's not in my nature to hold dominance over non-human animals. You know?

In regards to the plants comments, you're right. I suppose we don't officially know. That being said, we do know about non-human animals, they have feelings, they have their own way of life, thinking and emotions. So I do my best to avoid harming them for it's not for me.

On another note, I honestly do feel like I've become more enlightened since being vegan and getting more involved in researching environmental issues, etc. Oh, and yes - you are right in regards to the deforestation. It's destroying this planet as well. I know a lot of the deforestation is to make room for more livestock. Anyway, we all as humans can do stuff to help the planet, we all know this. It's just a matter of taking our own steps.

On another note - I always enjoy your posts, ha! You seem pretty well informed :- )

 

[noise666]

As often as this topic gets debated, I have yet to see someone, from either side, change their mind.

It's rare, but it has happened.

EDIT: Afterall, I changed my mind :- )