Getting rid of weight cutters

[WinZip]

We might as well close the board with this attitude.

We can discuss things, but it's not much of a "discussion" when all you say is "weight cutting is bad" and assert that your beliefs should be enforced on people you've never met when you have absolutely no standing as any kind of qualified expert.

And weight cutting IS bad for fighters' health and has no advantages.

It is certainly bad for their health. I've never once disputed that. As far as "having no advantages" - if that were true why would EVERY PRO FIGHTER be doing it? That's like saying that steroids "have no advantages" because they can cause health issues.

I am sure there is not a single fighter in the world who enjoys it.

And yet they still do it.

The reason it still exists is 1) that nobody came up with a real, workable solution so far, 2) there are fighters who benefit from it by gaining an advantage over their opponents simply by being able to cut more weight and 3) the cost of adjusting (which would be negligable though imo if division champions were not among the big weight cutters).

Except that the cost of every fighter on the roster moving up a weight class is ultimately pointless, isn't it? What about the champions who, under your "rules" would no longer be allowed to fight in their own divisions? How is stripping them of their belt in any way shape or form "fair"? How can you pretend this is in their best interest when you're not even considering what they want?

You think the champions aren't big weight cutters? Let's see:

1. Stipe - okay, he's probably safe.
2. Jones/DC/Rumble - all of them cut weight, so regardless of who is the champ at the end of 2017, they'd be forced to give up the belt and go to HW
3. Bisping - has fought at LHW and catchweight fights at 195. He'd be stripped.
4. Woodley/Thompson winner - both cut weight, either would be stripped
5. Conor - weighed in at 168 vs Diaz. That's a difference of 12 pounds (5 kilos) - he'd be stripped. So would the Khabib/Ferguson winner.
6. Aldo/Holloway - I'm not 100% sure about Holloway, but Aldo was considered a large FW for years and has fought at LW. He'd be stripped.
7. Garbrandt - he is a massive BW and easily cuts more than 3 kg - he'd be stripped
8. Johnson - he fought at BW and wasn't cutting much weight there, but now he's at 125 and cuts weight. He'd be stripped.

So...what was that you were saying, again?

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I think it should be up to the fighter to stay in shape and at a reasonable weight between fights - there should be no stipulation.

However, once the fight is announced I think that they should do a 1 month weight in and fighters should not be more than 10-12lbs over weight. And no more than 5 during fight week.

And you cannot weight more than 15lbs after rehydration (checked the next day).

There is always going to be weight cuts - they just need to be sensible about it and banning IVs was a good start.

 

[Lets Go Champ]

That's a horrible plan. People don't just conviently walk around at 170 155 205 exactly. In almost every case even if it's only a pound or two fighters have to cut weight. Having fighters cut or bulk up in fightday is just crazy. Every fight would look like Derrick Lewis

 

[hymn]

"Weight cutting is bad"

...okay? And? Why do you (or anyone else) have any right to tell professional athletes how they have to act? Who the fuck are you to fuck with their livelihoods? Serious question. Please list your credentials and why you believe you're qualified to make decisions for professional athletes.

it's a question of which set of rules is the most sensible. right now, fighters have to go through the grueling and unhealthy process of cutting weight before each fight for no particularly good reason since both of them weigh more or less the same anyway and could just meet at a higher weight if both agreed not to cut weight. prisoner's dilemma or something like that.

an easy solution to champions keeping their belts would be to move the weight classes up by 10 or 20 pounds, so lhw would be 220 or the like, close to where the fighters walk around.

more than op's proposition i think i like the one fc way best, where they follow the fighters' weight around the year, since it makes sure they aren't trying to come in dehydrated.

 

[JDragon]

It is certainly bad for their health. I've never once disputed that. As far as "having no advantages" - if that were true why would EVERY PRO FIGHTER be doing it? That's like saying that steroids "have no advantages" because they can cause health issues.

Objectively, there is no advantage to allowing weight cutting.

Except that the cost of every fighter on the roster moving up a weight class is ultimately pointless, isn't it? What about the champions who, under your "rules" would no longer be allowed to fight in their own divisions? How is stripping them of their belt in any way shape or form "fair"? How can you pretend this is in their best interest when you're not even considering what they want?

You think the champions aren't big weight cutters? Let's see:

1. Stipe - okay, he's probably safe.
2. Jones/DC/Rumble - all of them cut weight, so regardless of who is the champ at the end of 2017, they'd be forced to give up the belt and go to HW
3. Bisping - has fought at LHW and catchweight fights at 195. He'd be stripped.
4. Woodley/Thompson winner - both cut weight, either would be stripped
5. Conor - weighed in at 168 vs Diaz. That's a difference of 12 pounds (5 kilos) - he'd be stripped. So would the Khabib/Ferguson winner.
6. Aldo/Holloway - I'm not 100% sure about Holloway, but Aldo was considered a large FW for years and has fought at LW. He'd be stripped.
7. Garbrandt - he is a massive BW and easily cuts more than 3 kg - he'd be stripped
8. Johnson - he fought at BW and wasn't cutting much weight there, but now he's at 125 and cuts weight. He'd be stripped.

So...what was that you were saying, again?

I think you misread what I was saying. I said the cost of moving up would not be an issue if champions weren't among the big weight cutters (yet they are).

And also if we stopped weight cutting, there would likely be an adaptation of weight classes. Say people cut 10 pounds on average then well, let's move the weight limits up 10 pounds.

 

[fedors sweater]

Weight classes in general are ruining the sport on so many levels. I say have a 200+ class and a 200- class. That's it. Here we have more exciting fights, more potential matchups, less ducking and hiding behind divisions, the possibilities would be endless. If you still want to make a manlet vs manlet match go ahead who cares what they weigh let them come in healthy and at their best

 

[WinZip]

it's a question of which set of rules is the most sensible.

I agree. The thing is, changing all the divisions around and forcing champions to give up their belts isn't really "sensible"

right now, fighters have to go through the grueling and unhealthy process of cutting weight before each fight for no particularly good reason since both of them weigh more or less the same anyway and could just meet at a higher weight if both agreed not to cut weight. prisoner's dilemma or something like that.

Listen - I know weight cutting is bad. I get it. You don't have to sell me on the idea. But the fact is, we can't control these people. They're adults who make the conscious decision to be pro fighters. They consciously decide which weight class they want to fight at, and it's their right to do so. Smoking is also bad, as is drinking, or sitting too long at a desk every day. And yet these things are legal and few people are clamoring for them to be made illegal - because adults can make their own decisions.

an easy solution to allow champions to keep their belts would be to move the weight classes up by 10 or 20 pounds, so lhw would be 220 or the like, close to where the fighters walk around.

Except that the belts are tied to the weight, not the name of the weight class. That's why PRIDE's "middleweight" championship was unified with the UFC's LHW championship - the weight was what mattered, not the name of the weight class. The 205 pound champion is the 205 champion, not the 220 pound champion. Changing the weight of the division inherently affects who fights there, and the division you were king of at 205 is not the same division you'd face at 220. What if a champion already wasn't cutting much (or any) weight, and suddenly had to put on weight just to stay in their own division?

This doesn't make sense. If you were starting a new promotion, you could implement something like this. But since the UFC is already well established, you can't force something like this on fighters who are already being screwed over more than enough.

i think i like the one fc way best, where they follow the fighter's weight around the year, since it makes sure they aren't trying to come in dehydrated.

That's wonderful for One FC, but that's not the way it's done elsewhere and trying to force it on the fighters is just one more way they'd be fucked with. I'd rather not see the fighters fucked over again, thanks.

 

[WinZip]

Objectively, there is no advantage to allowing weight cutting.

Objectively, there absolutely is, and for you to claim otherwise is not only incredibly stupid, but it's also insulting to the fighters. What you're saying right now is that every fighter who dehydrates themselves and suffers in order to make weight is doing it for nothing and you know what's better for them than they do. Hint: you don't.

I think you misread what I was saying. I said the cost of moving up would not be an issue if champions weren't among the big weight cutters (yet they are).

And also if we stopped weight cutting, there would likely be an adaptation of weight classes. Say people cut 10 pounds on average then well, let's move the weight limits up 10 pounds.

It's not as simple as that. You don't just snap your fingers and say "okay - weight classes are now 10 pounds heavier. The end." That would cause massive fucking chaos in the UFC - especially if the fighters have no say in the matter. They're already being fucked over by the UFC in a lot of ways, why do you want to force new rigorous restrictions on them without even getting their input?

 

[hymn]

Listen - I know weight cutting is bad. I get it. You don't have to sell me on the idea. But the fact is, we can't control these people. They're adults who make the conscious decision to be pro fighters. They consciously decide which weight class they want to fight at, and it's their right to do so. Smoking is also bad, as is drinking, or sitting too long at a desk every day. And yet these things are legal and few people are clamoring for them to be made illegal - because adults can make their own decisions.

they also don't let fighters gouge eyes or groin strike even though some might be crazy enough to fight under those rules. or fight to the death even if they wanted to, the referee will stop the fight. i don't think refining the rules to work better imposes on their freedom to make decisions more than having weight classes in the first place.

Except that the belts are tied to the weight, not the name of the weight class. That's why PRIDE's "middleweight" championship was unified with the UFC's LHW championship - the weight was what mattered, not the name of the weight class. The 205 pound champion is the 205 champion, not the 220 pound champion. Changing the weight of the division inherently affects who fights there, and the division you were king of at 205 is not the same division you'd face at 220. What if a champion already wasn't cutting much (or any) weight, and suddenly had to put on weight just to stay in their own division?

the division wouldn't change (much) if you could stop everyone else from cutting weight too. stipe, cain etc would be just as far removed from lhw as they are now because they wouldn't be cutting weight.
someone who doesn't cut to make 205 is undersized for the division as it is, his size in relation to the competition wouldn't change since the usual fighting weight of the division is around 220 anyway. he's still be at the lower limit of 200-220 and fighting guys the size he used to.
it's a young sport and i think hanging on to the way things have been done for the short length of its history is kind of boneheaded.

 

[JDragon]

Objectively, there absolutely is, and for you to claim otherwise is not only incredibly stupid, but it's also insulting to the fighters. What you're saying right now is that every fighter who dehydrates themselves and suffers in order to make weight is doing it for nothing and you know what's better for them than they do. Hint: you don't.

I'm saying from an objective point of view, there is no upside to allow fighters to cut weight. If you were to set up a promotion, the only reason you'd allow it is 1) possible cost of regulating it and 2) the fact that you'd have to recruit your fighters from folks who have fought in other organizations where weight cutting was the standard.

Of course these fighters are doing it for something. They are doing it to gain an advantage over their opponents and, broadly speaking, to be able to fight in their assigned weight class. Not cutting weight is an option, but currently it's a bad one because if you don't do it, you will routinely fight people who are bigger than you.

What you're saying right now is that [...] you know what's better for them than they do. Hint: you don't.

Yes, I do. Not cutting weight is better for them. But it's not an individual decision to be made by the fighters.

Why do you think there is an IV ban?
Why do you think CSAC has begun doing specific gravity tests?

Right now, if you are among the lucky ones who are able to cut crazy amounts of weight, you're gonna have a huge size advantage. But objectively speaking, there is simply no reason to allow fighters to cut weight other than you don't like the intensity of change it would bring.

It's not as simple as that. You don't just snap your fingers and say "okay - weight classes are now 10 pounds heavier. The end." That would cause massive fucking chaos in the UFC - especially if the fighters have no say in the matter. They're already being fucked over by the UFC in a lot of ways, why do you want to force new rigorous restrictions on them without even getting their input?

Sure, my proposed 10 pounds measure would just reduce the chaos, but it wouldn't eliminate it.

You know what? People would get over it quickly.

And regarding asking them first: Sure. I just don't exactly recall their input being considered in any other decision before...

 

[WinZip]

they also don't let fighters gouge eyes or groin strike even though some might be crazy enough to fight under those rules. or fight to the death even if they wanted to, the referee will stop the fight. i don't think refining the rules to work better imposes on their freedom to make decisions more than having weight classes in the first place.

Except that forcing them to fight at a different weight class is not even comparable to groin strikes or eye pokes, but nice try. Also giving them literally no input? Yeah - not gonna happen.

the division wouldn't change (much) if you could stop everyone else from cutting weight too. stipe, cain etc would be just as far removed from lhw as they are now because they wouldn't be cutting weight.

You assume that. But what about the fighters who are already not cutting much weight? Now they have to move down. Or what about fighters cutting a lot of weight? They have to move up a division anyway, except now it's 20-25 pounds heavier than their former division. This is really not as cut-and-dry as you pretend it is.

someone who doesn't cut to make 205 is undersized for the division as it is, his size in relation to the competition wouldn't change since the usual fighting weight of the division is around 220 anyway. he's still be at the lower limit of 200-220 and fighting guys the size he used to.
it's a young sport and i think hanging on to the way things have been done for the short length of its history is kind of boneheaded.

So taking away a fighter's choice in what weight class they fight in is somehow totally okay, but not allowing them this freedom is "boneheaded"?

Yeah...alright then.

 

[Fergelmince]

they need a method of measuring and recording the fighter's weight over a sustained period of time, such as a week, and use the results to classify the fighter. Whatever the fighter is able to sustain healthfully over a sustained period of time is the weight class that fighter should be in.

 

[NRG]

You guys are as crazy as flat earthers.

 

[WinZip]

I'm saying from an objective point of view, there is no upside to allow fighters to cut weight.

But that's now what you said. If you're now changing what you originally said or clarifying it, that's one thing, but what you originally said was "objectively there is no advantage to cutting weight" - a statement which is simply untrue.

If you were to set up a promotion, the only reason you'd allow it is 1) possible cost of regulating it and 2) the fact that you'd have to recruit your fighters from folks who have fought in other organizations where weight cutting was the standard.

Or 3) because you think grown adults are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what weight class they should be fighting at because they are, you know, grown adults.

Of course these fighters are doing it for something. They are doing it to gain an advantage over their opponents and, broadly speaking, to be able to fight in their assigned weight class. Not cutting weight is an option, but currently it's a bad one because if you don't do it, you will routinely fight people who are bigger than you.

Exactly. So there is an advantage. And that's why everyone does it.

Yes, I do. Not cutting weight is better for them. But it's not an individual decision to be made by the fighters.

So something that affects the fighters shouldn't be decided in any way, shape, or form by the fighters and instead should be decided by people on Sherdog.

Why do you think there is an IV ban?

Because USADA indicated that using an IV can be used to cheat. Why do you think IVs are banned out of competition and not just during weight cuts?

Why do you think CSAC has begun doing specific gravity tests?

Why do you think they do steroid tests?

Right now, if you are among the lucky ones who are able to cut crazy amounts of weight, you're gonna have a huge size advantage. But objectively speaking, there is simply no reason to allow fighters to cut weight other than you don't like the intensity of change it would bring.

Except that 2 fighters agree to the same set of rules and agree to make the same weight before the fight. That's a mutually consented contract and two adults, perfectly aware of what they're getting into, have every right to make that decision for themselves.

Sure, my proposed 10 pounds measure would just reduce the chaos, but it wouldn't eliminate it.

Completely destroying the current divisions in an attempt to resolve something against the will of the fighters is going to "reduce the chaos"?

You know what? People would get over it quickly.

Yeah, when fighters are no longer able to earn a living because your rules prevent them from fighting due to their body not fitting the narrow weight requirements of the divisions - that'll just be "water under the bridge" for the now-unemployed fighters. They won't care at all.

And regarding asking them first: Sure. I just don't exactly recall their input being considered in any other decision before...

So we should just continue the pattern of ignoring what fighters want when making decisions that greatly affect their livelihoods? I guess you think the Reebok deal is great for the fighters and we should strive to continue in that line of thinking because fuck the fighters and their rights and their abilities to make a living.

 

[Mike]

The weekly weight cutting thread. What people always overlook, is promotions are not going to cancel a fight five minutes before it's supposed to happen.


It would be horrible for business. Weight cutting is just a part of the game

 

[TheScorpionDude]

Conor cuts ~5kg to make weight at LW. Rumble cuts ~4kg to make LHW, if not more (he fought at HW before, successfully). So...out of a roster of 500 fighters or whatever it's at now, we've got...Kelvin Gastelum at MW.

Brilliant. We'll cut all the other fighters and give all the belts to Gastelum, since he couldn't make weight at 170 and was forced to fight at 185, where he doesn't have to cut much weight.

Brilliant business move. Let's get Dana and Ari on the phone STAT!!!

This is the last sentence I am wasting on your filthy miserable idiotic existence.

 

[WinZip]

This is the last sentence I am wasting on your filthy miserable idiotic existence.

Ouch. Now you've made it personal. I guess I hit a nerve. Will you add me to your ignore list?

And you were the one wanting a discussion - I kept it reasonable (by Sherdog standards) and you get pissy. I guess you don't want a discussion that badly.

 

[Mike]

they need a method of measuring and recording the fighter's weight over a sustained period of time, such as a week, and use the results to classify the fighter. Whatever the fighter is able to sustain healthfully over a sustained period of time is the weight class that fighter should be in.

Doesn't work in a sport where guys walk around fat, and get in shape for camp. You're moving the average fighter up two weight classes that way

 

[FrodoFraggins]

Maybe i am missing something, but if they do the following:

- step 1: do the normal weight in 1 day before the fight.
- step 2: fighters make weight, proceed to step 3.
- step 3: weight them in right before they go into the octagon, if they miss weight by a large margin (more than 2 - 3 kg tops let say), make them automatically forfeit the fight.

What would the drawbacks of this method be?

the downside is that every weight class would be thrown a huge monkey wrench with most top fighters having to move up a class and giving up their belt.

I wouldn't be shocked, after a death say, if there is eventually legislation forcing weighins on the same day for combat sports. But I don't see that coming any time soon. A fighters union is unlikely to ask for same day weighins due to the issue I mentioned.

 

[FrodoFraggins]

The primary drawback is that literally no one would be able to fight and the business would fold.

Other than that, I guess I can't see too many problems. Unless you're a fan of the sport and want it to continue, that is. Then I'd say that would be pretty problematic since...you know...there would be no fights.

that's not true they'd just have to fight at the next weightclass up. That would be a major short term problem but be fine long term.