Getting rid of weight cutters

[usmctanker242]

If that's what you think than fine. I HAVE mentioned why a lot of ideas suggested either wouldn't work, are more complex in reality than in theory to implement, or have a cost attached they may not want to pay.


Saying that isn't saying none of those ideas could ever work, or be fine tuned. But potential costs and drawbacks have to be considered, the orgs will certainly consider them before changing anything.


Apparently considering possible drawbacks or ramifications of these changes makes me the bad guy. Well sorry, but these things would have to be considered before moving forward on any changes. Imo switching weight classes to only 10 lbs apart is better than any idea I've seen in here or any other thread. It doesn't cost anything, and ADDS value to the org in the form of two more champs to market.

You and Mike are having a big issue in here and I'm just trying to have a rational conversation with you.

More than once I've said determining a fighters "natural weight class / competition weight." Can you explain why that wouldn't be a reasonable and prudent way to start the process?

Also, apparently ONE FC has already done EXACTLY what I said should be done. So it's obviously not impossible to implement such changes, matter of fact they implemented it rather quickly after they had a fighter die. All that really happened was the same fights happened, but at a higher weight class and nobody is coming into their fights exhausted from a dramatic weight cut.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/12/...ighter-one-fc-unveils-new-weigh-in-program-to
https://onefc.com/the-sport/
http://www.mmamania.com/2015/12/23/...by-dehydration-challenges-ufc-follow-suit-mma

I think you're just straight up WRONG and your position has become indefensible. This system is in place and works in other organizations.... why can't it work in the US?

 

[DoopidyDawesome]

I'm in favor of day before weigh ins and then night of fight weigh ins. If you're more than 7% heavier than you were the day before, you forfeit your entire purse to your opponent. A 155lb. could only weigh about 165lbs. on fight night. This would also show us a better example of the true skills of every weight class and not some stupid ass competition of dehydration trickery.

 

[Mike]

No that is not my point.
So once again you prove it is your reading comprehension that is the problem and that leads you to wrongly say no one suggests anything.

My point has NOTHING to do with the risk.
This is our fundamental difference. You seem to not understand why fighters cut weight. That reason is to try and gain an advantage AFTER THE WEIGHT REGAIN. You seem to think it is the actual cut that is the advantage and therefore they would risk the cut even if they cannot regain and therefore you think I am talking about the risk.

I am saying if Khabib knew he would have to walk into the cage at the same weight he weighted in at then he would never cut 155lbs NOT BECAUSE it is risky but because he would be fighting at a disadvantage. The exact OPPOSITE of his goal.

So stop speaking for me or others and saying we are offering nothing when you simply cannot comprehend what is being discussed.

Yet, as I'm sure you'll continue to ignore, fighters have tried to cut weight on the day of the fight before. It's the whole reason boxing changed from same day weigh ins. Yes I know fighters won't plan to do that in most cases, I'm not dumb. But shit happens and it will still happen if a fighter gets hurt, sick, fails to prepare, etc. We know this because it HAS happened before.


And there's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I actually have very high reading comprehension, and have since I was a child.

 

[Mike]

You and Mike are having a big issue in here and I'm just trying to have a rational conversation with you.

More than once I've said determining a fighters "natural weight class / competition weight." Can you explain why that wouldn't be a reasonable and prudent way to start the process?

Also, apparently ONE FC has already done EXACTLY what I said should be done. So it's obviously not impossible to implement such changes, matter of fact they implemented it rather quickly after they had a fighter die. All that really happened was the same fights happened, but at a higher weight class and nobody is coming into their fights exhausted from a dramatic weight cut.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/12/...ighter-one-fc-unveils-new-weigh-in-program-to
https://onefc.com/the-sport/
http://www.mmamania.com/2015/12/23/...by-dehydration-challenges-ufc-follow-suit-mma

I think you're just straight up WRONG and your position has become indefensible. This system is in place and works in other organizations.... why can't it work in the US?

Same here that guys normally cool, but he's being an asshole for some reason.


I already mentioned all of this in regards to one fc, the ufc has never had a fighter die. They don't have the same motivation to change things, and we know they care very little for fighter health and safety. They also have fighters spread all over so it's harder to monitor them, and they have many more fighters and events.


Could this system still work for the ufc? Maybe. It could also be problematic for the reasons I mentioned. Hard to say.

 

[usmctanker242]

Same here that guys normally cool, but he's being an asshole for some reason.


I already mentioned all of this in regards to one fc, the ufc has never had a fighter die. They don't have the same motivation to change things, and we know they care very little for fighter health and safety. They also have fighters spread all over so it's harder to monitor them, and they have many more fighters and events.


Could this system still work for the ufc? Maybe. It could also be problematic for the reasons I mentioned. Hard to say.

So even with evidence showing you that this system can work, you're just going to disregard it? Do you think the UFC should wait until a fighter dies to stop a practice that is obviously unhealthy? Look at Barao.... were he alone he likely would have died when he passed out in the sauna. Easily could have been a first for the UFC.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but can you explain why that system of controls used by ONE FC wouldn't work in the US? What is so fundamentally different in the UFC that this kind of system wouldn't be effective?

 

[Katsumi Yamada]

hydration test at weigh ins. If they aren't hydrated they can't weigh in.

This has already been successfully implemented in ONE championship.

But yes, 90% of the fighters would have to move up a division.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Same here that guys normally cool, but he's being an asshole for some reason.


I already mentioned all of this in regards to one fc, the ufc has never had a fighter die. They don't have the same motivation to change things, and we know they care very little for fighter health and safety. They also have fighters spread all over so it's harder to monitor them, and they have many more fighters and events.


Could this system still work for the ufc? Maybe. It could also be problematic for the reasons I mentioned. Hard to say.

if you were posting anything like this prior we would not have any issue. Instead you were dismissive and boarding on trolling with your posts when someone would spend time and put down their point and you would repeat over and over no one suggested anything else or anything you did not agree with was stupid.

I am not suggesting any system is perfect and certainly the current one is not where people can die (like in OneFC) so pointing to risks and potential failures in another system is no reason to dismiss them when the current one has lots of risks and failures.

Anyway I am done with this as you now seem to be finally accepting, as opposed to dismissing and calling stupid, that there could be other ideas worth discussing.

 

[Mike]

if you were posting anything like this prior we would not have any issue. Instead you were dismissive and boarding on trolling with your posts when someone would spend time and put down their point and you would repeat over and over no one suggested anything else or anything you did not agree with was stupid.

I am not suggesting any system is perfect and certainly the current one is not where people can die (like in OneFC) so pointing to risks and potential failures in another system is no reason to dismiss them when the current one has lots of risks and failures.

Anyway I am done with this as you now seem to be finally accepting, as opposed to dismissing and calling stupid, that there could be other ideas worth discussing.

Well all I can say is if you jump in on like page 8 of a thread, you're probably not seeing the entire conversation. I've been consistent in pointing out logical problems with ideas people had, and they were ignoring the flaws I pointed out page after page.


That goes on long enough and yeah, you'll start to get a bit dismissive.

 

[A.S. Deep]

More weight classes would work, but it'd water down each class and lead to more ducking.

You could have constant monitoring of weight, but people might quickly cut before the weight tests. So that they'd still be big for their "natural weight class."

 

[Mike]

So even with evidence showing you that this system can work, you're just going to disregard it? Do you think the UFC should wait until a fighter dies to stop a practice that is obviously unhealthy? Look at Barao.... were he alone he likely would have died when he passed out in the sauna. Easily could have been a first for the UFC.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but can you explain why that system of controls used by ONE FC wouldn't work in the US? What is so fundamentally different in the UFC that this kind of system wouldn't be effective?

Like I already said, one fcs hydration tests are a great idea. There's problems imo with some other elements of their program, but hydration tests are hard to beat.


I also mentioned LONG ago in this thread, that people kept arguing for same day weigh ins, without providing any way to stop fighters from going in dehydrated. I ALSO mentioned hydration tests might solve that, but nobody was suggesting such a thing. Just saying fighters wouldn't dehydrate because it's risky. We know for a fact that isn't true, it's happened in boxing.


And no I don't want to see fighters affect their health with cuts, but I don't think the ufc cares because nobody has died. And even if someone did, they would only care about the negative publicity. One fc obviously cares about the health of their fighters, which is great, but the ufc really doesn't. And there's LOTS of evidence to confirm that.


The system they're using could work in the ufc, but they'd have to be willing to do the hydration tests, then make a catchweight or cancel the fight entirely if they miss. Frankly I think they're fine with fighters almost killing themselves to make weight, long as the fight isn't cancelled. It sounds like One FC has no problem following through on this, they're committed to fighter safety. Not so sure if the ufc could be sold on a similar system, but maybe.

 

[Mike]

No, giving them one hour to dehydrate is putting their health at serious risk if they choose to take the risk for a perceived advantage. And some will. Some always will if you don't prevent them.


People talk about risks of death from cutting, where you're going to see it is when a severely dehydrated fighter gets ktfo and takes unnecessary follow up shots while their brain isn't even properly hydrated.


If you had proposed a hydration test to make sure they're NOT going in severely dehydrated then maybe. But then we're back to fights getting called off again. If they'll cut until their kidneys shut down, or fight severely injured, they will come into a fight severely dehydrated if that's the only option given.

Btw here's me six pages ago saying you would need a safeguard against fighters dehydrating anyway with same day weigh ins. A safeguard like.... a hydration test. Which I correctly said nobody was mentioning in their plans.

 

[12ga.]

I say we shit can fighters who dont make weight instead. Weight cutting is as old as fighting. Millennials arnt. It's mainly this new gen who has such issues.

 

[Mike]

I say we shit can fighters who dont make weight instead. Weight cutting is as old as fighting. Millennials arnt. It's mainly this new gen who has such issues.

Well just because something is old doesn't mean it's the best way of doing things. At the same time it's hard to push change, people are naturally averse to it. So if you want to change anything, you've got to think of every potential problem that could arise

 

[bigbangspiritbomb]

No because he was gifted a shot against rda to begin with. Zero fights at lw, never even defended his fw belt. Went 1-1 with diaz and still got a shot.

So lets not act like he's some brave hero for agreeing to fight Diaz. Ferguson already said if they wanted to pay him or give him the interim belt for it, he'd have taken the fight. They wanted him to step in last second for a completely different style of opponent, for LESS money and acclaim if he won. And if he lost, well back of the line gl Tony maybe you can win for five years straight again.

Conor would have said fuck off under those circumstances too

Both don't deserve to carry a Mcgoat spit bucket.

 

[BarkTheSilentBrawler]

The drawback is EVERY SINGLE fighter would not be within 7 lbs of the official weigh-in.

Every fight would be forfeited by every fighter.

If you want to come up with a plan. It has to be a little better thought out than this one.

The primary drawback is that literally no one would be able to fight and the business would fold.

Other than that, I guess I can't see too many problems. Unless you're a fan of the sport and want it to continue, that is. Then I'd say that would be pretty problematic since...you know...there would be no fights.

If you can't make the weight, don't fight at that weight. If you want to come into your 170lb fight weighing 185lbs, fuck you, fight at 185. I'm 5'10 1/2 and live at a trim 141 lbs, you mean to tell me these guys receive tens of thousands of dollars per fight and can't live in fighting condition? Panama al brown didn't come into his bantamweight fights weighting 135 lbs to have an advantage over the guy he was fighting at 118 lbs or 125 lbs; he came in, at the agreed upon weight, despite being 5'8 to 5'11 (depending on the source (that or he cut height even better than Carwin)). If you're going to fight at welterweight, be a welterweight.

 

[BarkTheSilentBrawler]

The weekly weight cutting thread. What people always overlook, is promotions are not going to cancel a fight five minutes before it's supposed to happen.


It would be horrible for business. Weight cutting is just a part of the game

I apologize, this is unrelated, but is your profile pic from an old music video? Perhaps a hard rock one? I feel like I've seen it before.

 

[Mike]

I apologize, this is unrelated, but is your profile pic from an old music video? Perhaps a hard rock one? I feel like I've seen it before.

An artist makes these, I found this one on a site with dozens of them. That might be where you saw it. It was some deviant art sort of thing but I don't remember the exact name.

Although if you Google skeleton fairy you can probably find it.

 

[Gucci 'Trap God' Mane]

Maybe i am missing something, but if they do the following:

- step 1: do the normal weight in 1 day before the fight.
- step 2: fighters make weight, proceed to step 3.
- step 3: weight them in right before they go into the octagon, if they miss weight by a large margin (more than 2 - 3 kg tops let say), make them automatically forfeit the fight.

What would the drawbacks of this method be?

fuck weight cutters

 

[BarkTheSilentBrawler]

An artist makes these, I found this one on a site with dozens of them. That might be where you saw it. It was some deviant art sort of thing but I don't remember the exact name.

Although if you Google skeleton fairy you can probably find it.

I used to use deviantart a lot; That's probably where I saw it before. I appreciate it.

 

[Enganacious]

Easier idea.

Official weigh ins must be done no more than 6 hours prior to a fight.