Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning From Its Own History of Hate

[Lord Coke]

I didn't say WWII, I said the Holocaust.

Sure the Holocaust then. If not for the post WWI reparations the Thule Society would have gone a much different direction and you would not have seen the rise of national socialism.

What is your solution? It appears to be a removal of democracy because if the government can censor political parties and political speech then we don't have Western style democracy. If that is what you want say so.

 

[MicroBrew]

Did Germany ever have Freedom of Speech? None of those Western Euro nations do. And thus they can't really be called free countries. Freedom of Speech is the most basic and important of all rights. No country without it can call itself Free.

 

[MicroBrew]

Well, what are the potential consequences to policing language? Are they worse than the Holocaust? If free speech is dangerous and restricting free speech is also dangerous, then it seems they are stuck trying to identify the lesser of two evils.

I agree that they are being reactionary, but I think 1. This is a pretty understandable reaction; and 2. not being as reactionary as people here are assuming. I think a good portion of it is coming from wisdom.

Restricting Free Speech is more dangerous.

 

[MicroBrew]

Banning Free Speech is akin to book burning. In both instances, those holding the guns forcibly restrict ideas and opinions they don't like.

 

[Lord Coke]

Well, what are the potential consequences to policing language? Are they worse than the Holocaust? If free speech is dangerous and restricting free speech is also dangerous, then it seems they are stuck trying to identify the lesser of two evils.

I agree that they are being reactionary, but I think 1. This is a pretty understandable reaction; and 2. not being as reactionary as people here are assuming. I think a good portion of it is coming from wisdom.

Stalin and Mao got away with much mass murder campaigns because they were able to curb free speech
Pol Pot killed a much bigger percentage of the population.
The Holocaust just gets more press.

 

[Leagon]

Sure the Holocaust then. If not for the post WWI reparations the Thule Society would have gone a much different direction and you would not have seen the rise of national socialism.

What is your solution? It appears to be a removal of democracy because if the government can censor political parties and political speech then we don't have Western style democracy. If that is what you want say so.

I don't pretend to have a solution, but I think Western democracy is revealing itself to be rather inadequate at governing over people who have access to a rapid exchange of unexamined, unfiltered ideas.

Which is good. This is how new, better systems come about. I assume you didn't think Western democracy was the pinnacle of civilization and that no better systems would evolve?

 

[Rematch]

Well, what are the potential consequences to policing language? Are they worse than the Holocaust? If free speech is dangerous and restricting free speech is also dangerous, then it seems they are stuck trying to identify the lesser of two evils.

I agree that they are being reactionary, but I think 1. This is a pretty understandable reaction; and 2. not being as reactionary as people here are assuming. I think a good portion of it is coming from wisdom.

A slur is not an incitement to violence. Criticizing a group is not an incitement to violence. A joke that offends is not an incitement to violence. Counter-culture views are not an incitement to violence. Creating laws that bar the aforementioned is an afront to one of the most basic freedoms and democracy.

 

[Leagon]

Stalin and Mao got away with much mass murder campaigns because they were able to curb free speech
Pol Pot killed a much bigger percentage of the population.
The Holocaust just gets more press.

You think freedom of speech could have stopped Stalin and Mao? Or Pol Pot? How so?

 

[Leagon]

Did Germany ever have Freedom of Speech? None of those Western Euro nations do. And thus they can't really be called free countries. Freedom of Speech is the most basic and important of all rights. No country without it can call itself Free.

This seems like a ridiculous statement. No country before the United States of America was ever free? Does that seem like a near-useless definition of the term?

Or, alternatively, doesn't that then suggest that perhaps mass governance is incompatible with freedom and America was a happy accident?

 

[MicroBrew]

This seems like a ridiculous statement. No country before the United States of America was ever free? Does that seem like a near-useless definition of the term?

Or, alternatively, doesn't that then suggest that perhaps mass governance is incompatible with freedom and America was a happy accident?

I firmly believe that a country isn't truly free if it does not Freedom of Speech. You can say many countries have important freedoms, but none are truly free without Free Speech.

 

[Lord Coke]

I don't pretend to have a solution, but I think Western democracy is revealing itself to be rather inadequate at governing over people who have access to a rapid exchange of unexamined, unfiltered ideas.

Which is good. This is how new, better systems come about. I assume you didn't think Western democracy was the pinnacle of civilization and that no better systems would evolve?

I think that a society that does not have basic freedoms like freedom of speech is not a place I want to live. in.

 

[Leagon]

A slur is not an incitement to violence. Criticizing a group is not an incitement to violence. A joke that offends is not an incitement to violence. Counter-culture views are not an incitement to violence. Creating laws that bar the aforementioned is an afront to one of the most basic freedoms and democracy.

Here, I'll give you a scenario. Your mission is to kill Joe. However, you cannot actual kill him personally, nor hire a hitman. Instead, you have to convince someone else to kill him, but you can't outright say "go kill Joe." And there's no time limit. If it takes 35 years, it takes 35 years.

Are you telling me that you couldn't do that? What if you have thousands of people that basically worshiped you? Or a Twitter platform of several million people? I think any adult of above average intelligence and/or charisma could figure out how to get that done simply through slurs, jokes, and criticism.

I'm all for free speech. I love it. But I think the people in this thread have been acting as if it doesn't also present an enormous problem to the stability and safety of some countries.

 

[Leagon]

I think that a society that does not have basic freedoms like freedom of speech is not a place I want to live. in.

Lol, don't be so dramatic. Not many societies have freedom of speech.

 

[Leagon]

I firmly believe that a country isn't truly free if it does not Freedom of Speech. You can say many countries have important freedoms, but none are truly free without Free Speech.

This doesn't feel...off to you? It sounds almost religious. It's like a Christian saying that all religions may have merit, but the only true path to spiritual enlightenment is through Jesus of Nazareth. Like, of course you'd say that, you're a Christian. Your entire concept of spiritual enlightenment was formed by Christianity.

Do you think you would still have that belief if you grew up in another culture?

 

[Lord Coke]

Lol, don't be so dramatic. Not many societies have freedom of speech.

And I've never lived in any of them. I live in the greatest country on Earth because our rights are enshrined in our Founding documents. I have seen what the assault on free speech gets you. This is a case I am litigating. I've settled out most of my clients after winning on their free speech claims. I am still fighting for the rest. I kid you not in the Bay Area the school was punishing student for what they say on the internet on their free time. Thank God we have the U.S. Constitution and the federal court system to curb such abuse of government.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/free-speec...h-students-post-racist-images-on-social-media

 

[nostradumbass]

This doesn't feel...off to you? It sounds almost religious. It's like a Christian saying that all religions may have merit, but the only true path to spiritual enlightenment is through Jesus of Nazareth. Like, of course you'd say that, you're a Christian. Your entire concept of spiritual enlightenment was formed by Christianity.

Do you think you would still have that belief if you grew up in another culture?

Not if they fucking banned talking about it and threatened to behead you. Who exactly is the one to decide what's acceptable?

 

[Leagon]

And I've never lived in any of them. I live in the greatest country on Earth because our rights are enshrined in our Founding documents. I have seen what the assault on free speech gets you. This is a case I am litigating. I've settled out most of my clients after winning on their free speech claims. I am still fighting for the rest. I kid you not in the Bay Area the school was punishing student for what they say on the internet on their free time. Thank God we have the U.S. Constitution and the federal court system to curb such abuse of government.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/free-speec...h-students-post-racist-images-on-social-media

I've lived in countries without freedom of speech and it's really not a big deal. Relax, lol.

How do you know you live in the greatest country if you haven't lived in any others? That's like saying your mom is the best chef in the world when you've never eaten someone else's cooking.

 

[Leagon]

Not if they fucking banned talking about it and threatened to behead you. Who exactly is the one to decide what's acceptable?

Whoever can enforce it, obviously.

 

[nostradumbass]

Whoever can enforce it, obviously.

Isn't that magical? Whoever has the guns can shutdown what other people say or hear. Sounds like a paradise.

 

[Leagon]

Isn't that magical? Whoever has the guns can shutdown what other people say or hear. Sounds like a paradise.

No, it doesn't. But the alternative--where whoever has the best, most compelling words gets to control all the guns--can also be a fucking nightmare. Hence why these things have to be continuously reexamined and improved upon.