Exactly how legit is Rickson Gracie?

[jodyc81]

It's odd that as a hardcore MMA fan of four years' standing, I have to ask how legit Rickson Gracie was in real combat (as opposed to pure BJJ). Sure, he was the original star of Pride, and could have competed in the UFC, but, beside Funaki, did he ever fight anyone who was legit? Not that I can see.

There's something of a consensus that he's the best BJJ practitioner of all time, but while that is probably true, it doesn't mean that he deserves the MMA reverence that he gets. People love his stories - the fight on the beach and behind closed doors - but his opponents were not significant combatants.

Obviously he showed the power of BJJ in twice besting the massive Zulu in NHB-type fights in Brazil, in 1980 and 1984. Fine.

So far as I can tell, his opponents at Vale Tudo Japan in '94 and '95 were not notable combatants.

In Pride, he twice fought a fucking pro wrestler, Takada - who had a terrible record of 2 wins and 6 losses (1 of those wins being a fight with Coleman that was probably fixed).

His final fight in 2000 was against another pro wrestler, Funaki, who easily had the strongest credentials of any opponent.

His opponent in the beach fight, Hugo Duarte, didn't beat anyone of note in MMA, and lost to Tank Abbott and Mark Kerr.

His other infamous fight, the unseen scuffle with Yoji Anjo, saw him beat up another pro wrestler - shock - who retired with an MMA record of 0 wins and 5 losses.

With the exception of Funaki, Rickson never fought ANYONE who was legit. His Joe Rogan podcast saw him talking endlessly about streetfights in Brazil (kinda sounds a bit thuggish, but whatever) against people who nobody has ever heard of!

So, basically, as a legit fighter, as opposed to BJJ expert, is it safe to say that the Rickson Gracie myth is nothing but another carefully-managed Gracie informercial?

Rickson's record of 400-0 was called bullshit by his own father. He appears to count rolling in the gym as part of his 400-0 resume. And yet, in his entire life, he was never tapped by anyone? Not even when he was learning? That's ridiculous and implausible. It indicates that Rickson only counts episodes where he came out on top, and conveniently ignores those where he didn't (for instance he has a documented loss in sambo, but simply ignores it). Using Rickon's methodology (ignore where things tanked), we would ALL have a perfect 400-0 record at something or another. Why jeopardise your reputation by fighting Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock etc. and be defeated publicly in a way that you can't deny?

As an aside, in the JRE podcast Rickson mentioned the many BJJ titles that he won in tournaments. I've never seen those listed anywhere, but I'm obviously looking in the wrong place. Could someone point me towards his BJJ titles/resume?

As you can perhaps tell, something about the Rickson myth rubs me the wrong way.

I think its similar to his brother royce, he won the ufc when mma wasnt mma yet, by that i mean there was a mix of styles in the octogon but not one person was good all round, so with both royce and rickson we see how effective BJJ was and can be against fighters who were not even white belt level BJJ.
As the sport has progressed weve seen how top level bjj guys such as gracie family member roger gracie struggle to get the fight to the ground where he can be effective.
Rickson and royce have to be respected for getting in there and putting there style and family name on the line in NHB fights and they could only fight the guys that were around at the time.
I believe Rickson with the right training could of done well in this day and age, with his physique, flexibility and dedication to training he could learn quick, he would just need to be at a quality striking/mma gym to help him learn stand up and transition from standing to the ground, but if he was put in the ufc now with the skill set he had back then i believe he gets beaten badly.
I cant find any BJJ tournament accomplishments, Hes an 8th degree red and black belt, going by his fellow family members including his son Kron who is one of the best Grapplers around now, Rickson was the best Gracie jiu jitsu practitioner, the mantle of best competition jiu jitsu practitioner has to go to Roger Gracie.
Rickson's 400 undefeated record can not be verified and given the level of NHB competition and lack of BJJ competition history you'd have to say his legend does sound part myth and hear say, i would say he is a legend along with Royce in terms of being a pioneer of BJJ and NHB and bringing it to the attention of rest of the world.

 

[xmovingparts]

Another omission of Yuki Nakai.

Awesome job, TS. :/

 

[TheWolfsHowl]

Sakuraba was smaller than Rickson (I think), and also fought a huge number of very large men. As a catch-wrestler, the Sakuraba-Rickson match-up would have been fantastic given Sakuraba's results against the other Gracies.

The fact that Rickson never wanted to restore his family's name against Saku is a bit sketchy to me. Maybe he couldn't count on his victory in the spotlight against such an accomplished grappler? I don't know.

I do remember reading an interview with Royce, though. He was asked about Rickson and said something about how there was one time Rickson challenged him and another Gracie (forget which) and even though both of them were trying to submit him at the same time, neither one could get a single hold on him without him escaping before it was locked in.

Now, that may be the Gracies trying to protect their own and make him appear "larger than life" but imagine if that were true.

Still, he loses in modern MMA because there's so many facets of the game that BJJ alone will not teach you.

 

[Toxxus]

Rickson wouldn't have won UFC 2 let alone beat any modern day top 30 fighters in his prime.

I get that Rickson's reputation may be overblown, but this is just stupid. Rickson would crush any version of Royce that ever existed and Royce won UFC 1,2 and 4. Had he not been injured after the Kimo match he would have easily won UFC 3.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I could have taken Steve f'in Jennum.

Rickson would easily win the first 4 UFCs and do so far more impressively than Royce did. Unlike the other Gracies Rickson could actually throw a hard punch and had better strength and conditioning regimens.

Saying he couldn't win UFC 2 is admitting you've gone full retard.

 

[Area809]

You're not saying anything we didn't know already. However, I'm still a huge fan. Let's be real about a few things, though: 1) in the early days of mma, everyone had padded records 2) by the time mma competition started to become legit, the dude was almost 40 yrs old 3) as far a official bjj credentials, idk--but there's something to be said if you're considered the best in a family that has produced legit bjj champs like Royler, Roger, Kron, Renzo, etc. 4) at the risk of doing the malign mma math, his domination of Funaki is more impressive considering how competitive Funaki was agaisnt Rutten and the Shamrocks, Mezger, etc.

I think the guy was as legit as could be in his era, where the sport lacked legitimacy.

 

[fetalpuzishun]

He would tap Cain in under a minute.

 

[kimocomplex]

if you believe the stories the entire family says, Rickson was much better than Royce

and with him being bigger, you have to assume Rickson would have done better

Royce beat Severn, so its logical to think Rickson would have beat Frye and possibly Coleman. All of this of course is hypothetical and there is no way to really know

 

[Tomaabro]

The fact that Rickson never wanted to restore his family's name against Saku is a bit sketchy to me. Maybe he couldn't count on his victory in the spotlight against such an accomplished grappler? I don't know.

I do remember reading an interview with Royce, though. He was asked about Rickson and said something about how there was one time Rickson challenged him and another Gracie (forget which) and even though both of them were trying to submit him at the same time, neither one could get a single hold on him without him escaping before it was locked in.

Now, that may be the Gracies trying to protect their own and make him appear "larger than life" but imagine if that were true.

Still, he loses in modern MMA because there's so many facets of the game that BJJ alone will not teach you.

Well he was scheduled to fight saku and his son rockson died of overdose. That's a good enough reason for me for him to retire.

 

[sevynnsynns]

He's two legit, two legit to quit !!! I fucking hate that saying legit , it's from the 1990's and people use it today. Just sooooo bad

 

[Tomaabro]

if you believe the stories the entire family says, Rickson was much better than Royce

and with him being bigger, you have to assume Rickson would have done better

Royce beat Severn, so its logical to think Rickson would have beat Frye and possibly Coleman. All of this of course is hypothetical and there is no way to really know

It was said in Royce Gracie's prime, Rickson was tapping him with 1 arm in his belt.

Fun Fact: Rickson was expected to step in if Royce Gracie was to lose in the UFC.

 

[glennrod]

I get that Rickson's reputation may be overblown, but this is just stupid. Rickson would crush any version of Royce that ever existed and Royce won UFC 1,2 and 4. Had he not been injured after the Kimo match he would have easily won UFC 3.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I could have taken Steve f'in Jennum.
Rickson would easily win the first 4 UFCs and do so far more impressively than Royce did. Unlike the other Gracies Rickson could actually throw a hard punch and had better strength and conditioning regimens.

Saying he couldn't win UFC 2 is admitting you've gone full retard.

Im not going to flat out disbelieve what you said, but you would have to be a pretty tough dude to be able to beat up a cop who happens to be a high ranking black belt instructor. while the fighters of then may not be as advanced as today, they were some tough dudes

 

[RABBITBELLI]

Rickson Gracie the best!!

 

[tomjones]

Bruce Lee is the greatest, second is Rickson Gracie and third is Conor McGregor.

 

[Steve08]

It's hard to really say because his jiu-jitsu is so old school and basic compared to modern games. But, I can tell you that Mark Schultz wrestled with him for 40 minutes and couldn't do anything beyond hold him (didn't know what to do once he had pinned Rickson), and was then submitted. He began training under Rickson BB Pedro Sauer shortly after that.

He just stood there and said, “Come on”. No stance or anything like that. So I took him down and I had him in a cradle for maybe twenty minutes. I didn’t know any submissions so I was making stuff up. I was trying to keep my chin down and elbows in which I learned from judo, but that’s about all I knew because it was all against wrestling rules. He got me in a triangle so I tapped out and I asked if we could again. So went for about another twenty minutes, and I held him in a cradle for another twenty minutes and, finally, my grip just gave out, and I was so frustrated [that] I was on top of him for so long and nothing was happening so I thought, "I’ll let him get on top of me". I let him reverse me, but as a wrestler, I brainwashed myself to go belly down so I wouldn’t get pinned, so he just immediately pulled my chin up and did a rear naked choke and tapped me out again.

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/olymp...e-2nd-toughest-submission-grappler-ive-faced/

I definitely think Rickson could've beaten Severn, Shamrock, Frye, Coleman, etc. He had all the patience and will to win of Royce, but was stronger, more skilled, and more aggressive. In a setting with no time limits, I don't see how each of those guys wouldn't be tapped by Rickson, even if it took him 20+ minutes.

I read a post on here from some dude who didn't seem to have any training, where he claimed something to the effect of, "the wrestler is an anaconda, he will squeeze his opponent to death and grind them down until they give up", but wrestling matches end as soon as you land on your back/shoulders, and have very little relevance to a street-fight. Furthermore, wrestling, as a martial art in and of itself, has no answer for the guard. That much is irrefutable.

So, in reality, the Black Belt is the anaconda. He will wait, and you will tell him to "be a man", "stop hugging", and then he will get your arm and break it if you don't tap out, and you will feel very, very stupid. And Rickson, at that time, was THE black belt... possibly one of the five best ground-fighters in the world, as it is alleged that some (not many) judoka had even more ground skill than him.

 

[waldywaldy]

Yuki Nakai not legit? Only one of the baddest motherfuckers to ever compete in mma. GTFO

 

[C0NCH3TO]

Here ya go buddy.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/rickson-gracie-faq-1062118/

that was a very nice read, thanks for the link.

Sakuraba would have ruined Rickson, no doubt.

 

[Andre Xiong]

Rickson's best win, imo, is against Masakatsu Funaki, who was a legit grappler and fighter during the Pancrase era with wins over legit fighters like Shamrocks (both), Mezger, Bas and Kondo.

Sure, Funaki was old and off of retirement but had Rickson never submitted Funaki, his other best win would be.........Takada.

 

[brisko21]

He'd obviously get wrecked in todays MMA. But that's not his legacy. Pure BJJ, he is the greatest ever. He was "waiting in the wings" at the early UFC events, in case someone came along and defeated Royce.

 

[Steve08]

Sakuraba would have ruined Rickson, no doubt.

Standing? Sure. On the ground? No. Nobody "ruins" Rickson on the ground, except his son or other world-class black belts, during his old age... unless you think of catch wrestling as some mystical kryptonite to Jiu-Jitsu or whatever, rather than a great way to play top game.

 

[kaya]

Rickson's best win, imo, is against Masakatsu Funaki, who was a legit grappler and fighter during the Pancrase era with wins over legit fighters like Shamrocks (both), Mezger, Bas and Kondo.

Sure, Funaki was old and off of retirement but had Rickson never submitted Funaki, his other best win would be.........Takada.

Ignoring the obvious that the fight with Funaki could very very easily have been fixed.