Exactly how legit is Rickson Gracie?

It's hard to really say because his jiu-jitsu is so old school and basic compared to modern games. But, I can tell you that Mark Schultz wrestled with him for 40 minutes and couldn't do anything beyond hold him (didn't know what to do once he had pinned Rickson), and was then submitted. He began training under Rickson BB Pedro Sauer shortly after that.



http://www.bjjee.com/articles/olymp...e-2nd-toughest-submission-grappler-ive-faced/

I definitely think Rickson could've beaten Severn, Shamrock, Frye, Coleman, etc. He had all the patience and will to win of Royce, but was stronger, more skilled, and more aggressive. In a setting with no time limits, I don't see how each of those guys wouldn't be tapped by Rickson, even if it took him 20+ minutes.

I read a post on here from some dude who didn't seem to have any training, where he claimed something to the effect of, "the wrestler is an anaconda, he will squeeze his opponent to death and grind them down until they give up", but wrestling matches end as soon as you land on your back/shoulders, and have very little relevance to a street-fight. Furthermore, wrestling, as a martial art in and of itself, has no answer for the guard. That much is irrefutable.

So, in reality, the Black Belt is the anaconda. He will wait, and you will tell him to "be a man", "stop hugging", and then he will get your arm and break it if you don't tap out, and you will feel very, very stupid. And Rickson, at that time, was THE black belt... possibly one of the five best ground-fighters in the world, as it is alleged that some (not many) judoka had even more ground skill than him.

What that tells me is that Schultz could have out pointed Rickson in a graphing contest and could have potentially done some serious damage of GNP were permitted. That actually sounds about right. If the modern day incarnations of both guys were to rise up the ranks, Schultz would be a more highly regarded prospect bc an Olympic Gold in wrestling is a bigger achievement than a black belt in bjj.
 
What that tells me is that Schultz could have out pointed Rickson in a graphing contest and could have potentially done some serious damage of GNP were permitted. That actually sounds about right. If the modern day incarnations of both guys were to rise up the ranks, Schultz would be a more highly regarded prospect bc an Olympic Gold I wrestling is a bigger achievement than a black belt in bjj.
Maybe with takedown points, lol.

And, Rickson was very familiar with defending strikes on the ground. As stated, he is not comparable to modern day, world-class black belts by any means. He was very concerned with applying his jiu-jitsu to self-defense and street-fighting, which differs from the contemporary sporting attitude greatly. If you read that article, he even says he normally fights with headbutts and elbows, but that they weren't gonna do that.

Your last statement makes very little sense to me, as Rickson's style is 70s/80s jiu-jitsu, and I've never seen anyone become champ in the past five years with literally nothing but wrestling. Neither of those guys are comparable to modern mma at all. Rickson isn't just a "black belt", for another thing. He is actually living proof that a world-class wrestler can't just steamroll Jiu-Jitsu via Kryptonite.
Ignoring the obvious that the fight with Funaki could very very easily have been fixed.
On what basis? I can't see Rickson agreeing to anything like that.
 
Rickson wouldn't have won UFC 2 let alone beat any modern day top 30 fighters in his prime.

That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read here at Sherdog. Rickson would have blown through all the early UFC competitors a lot easier than Royce. The Gracies, including Helio, wanted Rickson to take over for Royce but the money was crap so he didn't. Rickson trained Royce for all his fights and was more fit, stronger and more technical than Royce, Renzo, Ralph, all of them. He also hit very hard and was open to other styles (Judo, Boxing, Sambo) to gain advantage.

I remember when the Gracies haters predicted the "modern" Frank Shamrock would easily dispatch of Renzo. Renzo toyed with him and the only reason Ken got the draw against Royce in their second fight was because of rule changes and Ken's HUGE new muscles.
 
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What that tells me is that Schultz could have out pointed Rickson in a graphing contest and could have potentially done some serious damage of GNP were permitted. That actually sounds about right. If the modern day incarnations of both guys were to rise up the ranks, Schultz would be a more highly regarded prospect bc an Olympic Gold in wrestling is a bigger achievement than a black belt in bjj.

But using GNP on an expert grappler opens up holes for the submission fighter also. Rickson's sweeps were legendary and his GNP was lethal also. The big wrestlers needed the rules changes (rounds, time limits) to succeed. I've watched nearly every UFC event since it's inception and the rounds, time limits, and the fact that wrestlers learned BJJ made all the difference.
 
Reffson said:
I've watched nearly every UFC event since it's inception and the rounds, time limits, and the fact that wrestlers learned BJJ made all the difference.
THANK YOU.

Anyone ever seen Tom Erikson vs. Murilo Bustamante? 30 minute time limit with a 10 minute overtime. GnP allowed. Very few rules. It's not much to watch by modern standards, but by God, I have never seen anything like this:

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So, for the record, that is a world-class wrestler with an ~85lb weight advantage, standing up and refusing to wrestle with his opponent! And this guy was not some bum. He was a two-time NJCAA champ, a 2x All-American for Oklahoma, and had placed second or third in pretty much every national tournament he competed in after leaving college. He also placed 4th in the 1997 FILA World Championships years after he had wrestled competitively. So, tread lightly if you feel inclined to talk shit about Erikson's wrestling ability, as opposed to simply acknowledging the power of Jiu-Jitsu, because he is the direct product of the Murcan Folkstyle Wrassling all you guys like to jizz over when you look at the athletic backgrounds of most current UFC champs.
 
Yuki Nakai is certainly 'legit.' I'd say that to call Funaki and Yuki Nakai legit is something of an understatement. Yoshinori Nishi was also very skilled and Koichiro Kimura was the Submission Arts Wrestling national champ(Submission Arts Wrestling is a no-gi grappling tournament which preceded ADCC and Combat Wrestling and may have been the first no-gi grappling tournament of the modern era).

That avatar is familiar as hell. Isnt it a banned poster called bloc quebecois?
 
that was a very nice read, thanks for the link.

Sakuraba would have ruined Rickson, no doubt.

Rickson set his terms, which were not overly rich, and Pride refused. Pride protected Sak from Rickson because they made money from his "Gracie Killer" mantra. Rickson would have wrecked him. Hell Sak needed to cheat against Royler (he did not tap) and Royce, where he used the ropes illegaly and it still took him what, 80 minutes to win? Royce had a broken bone in his leg! A healthy Royce goes about 5 minutes with Rickson. Sak admitted in Grappling Mag that Rickson's demands would not be met by Pride because "nobody make money". What a load of crap. If it the only fight on the card and they charged TWICE as much for a ticket they would have sold out. This is why Pride is gone. Friking crooks running it.
 
Rickson was pre-MMA in a sense. The fights he did have were when he was already a very established name in the martial arts universe due to his career as a grappler, and probably well past his athletic prime. Speculating how he'd do in modern MMA is mostly conjecture, but there's no denying his greatness.
 
Sakuraba was smaller than Rickson (I think), and also fought a huge number of very large men. As a catch-wrestler, the Sakuraba-Rickson match-up would have been fantastic given Sakuraba's results against the other Gracies.

For me this is the biggest argument against Rickson's legitimacy in MMA. Do you think Pride would not have made the Saku-Rickson match in a heartbeat, probably for a large sum of money? Rickson did not step up and fight the man that came to be known as the Gracie Hunter.
 
THANK YOU.

Anyone ever seen Tom Erikson vs. Murilo Bustamante? 30 minute time limit with a 10 minute overtime. GnP allowed. Very few rules. It's not much to watch by modern standards, but by God, I have never seen anything like this:

BriskRemorsefulBumblebee.gif


GoodMiserableGroundhog.gif


InsidiousEducatedIndianelephant.gif


So, for the record, that is a world-class wrestler with an ~85lb weight advantage, standing up and refusing to wrestle with his opponent! And this guy was not some bum. He was a two-time NJCAA champ, a 2x All-American for Oklahoma, and had placed second or third in pretty much every national tournament he competed in after leaving college. He also placed 4th in the 1997 FILA World Championships years after he had wrestled competitively. So, tread lightly if you feel inclined to talk shit about Erikson's wrestling ability, as opposed to simply acknowledging the power of Jiu-Jitsu, because he is the direct product of the Murcan Folkstyle Wrassling all you guys like to jizz over when you look at the athletic backgrounds of most current UFC champs.

Erikson wasn't just a huge, excellent wreslter either. He trained with Couture, Henderson and Lindland and they were all great fighters.
 
It has been said that he wanted Royce to fight instead of him because Royce was naive, if Royce won it would make it seem good by having them all market how if Royce could do it then Rickson would do even better but had Royce lost he still could have saved face. To me this is like having one of your friends send you to ask a girl out for him if she says yes, you did the hard work for him but if she says no, they dont have to go through the shame of being rejected. The more you look into Ricksons dealings the more respect you lose for him.

The first part of this has always been the Gracies story. You make a good point though, Royce did also provide a built in excuse if he didn't win.
 
The true answer to this thread is that there is not enough evidence to make a definitive argument either way.

Human beings, due to their natural propensity for survival and evolution will seek greatness in their peers. The greater the perceived proximity, the more we will seek this attribute.

Semantics can be used to strengthen one's position and in the case of Rickson Gracie, there is not enough objective evidence to refute the widely held perception of dominance that his peers hold.
 
Semantics can be used to strengthen one's position and in the case of Rickson Gracie, there is not enough objective evidence to refute the widely held perception of dominance that his peers hold.
Add the fact that people like Andre Galvao and Dave Camarillo, who have nothing to gain by exaggerating Rickson's ability, have both come out and stated that he is, for lack of a better term, the bee's knees, and that pretty much says it all, IMO.

Nobody is a demi-god who has all the attributes they did at age 25, at age 55. But during Rickson's prime, he was very fucking good.
 
Add the fact that people like Andre Galvao and Dave Camarillo, who have nothing to gain by exaggerating Rickson's ability, have both come out and stated that he is, for lack of a better term, the bee's knees, and that pretty much says it all, IMO.

Nobody is a demi-god who has all the attributes they did at age 25, at age 55. But during Rickson's prime, he was very fucking good.

Apart from the fact that they have devoted their legacy to BJJ, you could argue that their position is largely objective. What I will say is that Rickson is one of the rare few sportsmen that have widely allowed claim to the throne of a particular sport.

Did you watch the footage of Bravo breaking down the 'rubber guard' to Rickson on Rogan's podcast? I wonder how long Bravo dreamed of that day.
 
I really enjoyed the recent UFC where Rogan commented that Rickson does a lot of things wrong from a technical standpoint. I still chuckle over that.
 
Believe what you see.

Throughout history, all the best athletes in every sport have always competed against the very best competition in front of the entire world. They rise to the occasion on the biggest stage while the bright lights are on them.

They perform for the highest stakes with their reputation on the line and find a way to overcome the pressure of performing in public.

That's where you find the legit best. Always have, always will. That is why they are called champions.

PS: When you have to ask if someone is legit, you already have your answer. For example, no one ever asks aloud if the guy in my sig is legit.

45 seconds to 50 seconds...
 
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In 1993 at the U.S. Sambo Championships in Norman, Oklahoma, undefeated Rickson Gracie, of the legendary Gracie Jiu-Jitsu family, with over 300 straight victories, was matched with multiple Judo and Sambo champion Ron Tripp. The 6 feet 205 pound Tripp threw the 5 feet 10 inch, 185 pound Gracie to the canvas by "Uchimata" in 47 seconds and Gracie's shoulders touched the floor, thus giving Tripp "absolute" victory under U.S. Sambo rules. Rickson complained that he didn't understand the rules, because if he did, he would never have let himself be thrown.

A Gracie complaining about rules.... Never
 
The truth his that hes a fake

Its not fighter bashing its just the truth
 
It's odd that as a hardcore MMA fan of four years' standing, I have to ask how legit Rickson Gracie was in real combat (as opposed to pure BJJ). Sure, he was the original star of Pride, and could have competed in the UFC, but, beside Funaki, did he ever fight anyone who was legit? Not that I can see.

There's something of a consensus that he's the best BJJ practitioner of all time, but while that is probably true, it doesn't mean that he deserves the MMA reverence that he gets. People love his stories - the fight on the beach and behind closed doors - but his opponents were not significant combatants.

Obviously he showed the power of BJJ in twice besting the massive Zulu in NHB-type fights in Brazil, in 1980 and 1984. Fine.

So far as I can tell, his opponents at Vale Tudo Japan in '94 and '95 were not notable combatants.

In Pride, he twice fought a fucking pro wrestler, Takada - who had a terrible record of 2 wins and 6 losses (1 of those wins being a fight with Coleman that was probably fixed).

His final fight in 2000 was against another pro wrestler, Funaki, who easily had the strongest credentials of any opponent.

His opponent in the beach fight, Hugo Duarte, didn't beat anyone of note in MMA, and lost to Tank Abbott and Mark Kerr.

His other infamous fight, the unseen scuffle with Yoji Anjo, saw him beat up another pro wrestler - shock - who retired with an MMA record of 0 wins and 5 losses.

With the exception of Funaki, Rickson never fought ANYONE who was legit. His Joe Rogan podcast saw him talking endlessly about streetfights in Brazil (kinda sounds a bit thuggish, but whatever) against people who nobody has ever heard of!

So, basically, as a legit fighter, as opposed to BJJ expert, is it safe to say that the Rickson Gracie myth is nothing but another carefully-managed Gracie informercial?

Rickson's record of 400-0 was called bullshit by his own father. He appears to count rolling in the gym as part of his 400-0 resume. And yet, in his entire life, he was never tapped by anyone? Not even when he was learning? That's ridiculous and implausible. It indicates that Rickson only counts episodes where he came out on top, and conveniently ignores those where he didn't (for instance he has a documented loss in sambo, but simply ignores it). Using Rickon's methodology (ignore where things tanked), we would ALL have a perfect 400-0 record at something or another. Why jeopardise your reputation by fighting Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock etc. and be defeated publicly in a way that you can't deny?

As an aside, in the JRE podcast Rickson mentioned the many BJJ titles that he won in tournaments. I've never seen those listed anywhere, but I'm obviously looking in the wrong place. Could someone point me towards his BJJ titles/resume?

As you can perhaps tell, something about the Rickson myth rubs me the wrong way.

At the time, they were notable combatents. Some came from the early UFCs, even as a runner up, some came from pancrase, and others from Shooto. All notable Orgs at the time, so the Vale Tudo Japan tournies were as legit as they could get at the time. Rickson was 35 years old at the time, and he beat everyone quite handedly. Nowadays we know what happened in the forth coming years, so we know who became succesful, legend, etc.. and who never amounted to anything.

But you have to realise that at that time the people fighting in the Japan Vale Tudo Tournaments were the real deal. Before Pride took over the MMA world, JVT was the first org to legit compete with the early UFC.
 
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