Exactly how legit is Rickson Gracie?

OP part of the problem is that you are judging from an MMA point of view.
Rickson is from an era when MMA wasn't really formed quite yet.
He was part of the establishing of it, but the ball wasn't really rolling.

Further more, I think he considered himself a martial artist first, not an athete or MMA fighter. From your post, I get the feeling that like many MMA fans and even some MMA fighters, you aren't really that clear on the differences between MA and MMA since you call MMA real combat.

All of that said, padded record? inflated myths? For sure. Rickson comes across as having delusions of grandeur.
 
Mob69 said:
It's odd that as a hardcore MMA fan of four years' standing, I have to ask how legit Rickson Gracie was in real combat (as opposed to pure BJJ). Sure, he was the original star of Pride, and could have competed in the UFC, but, beside Funaki, did he ever fight anyone who was legit? Not that I can see.

There's something of a consensus that he's the best BJJ practitioner of all time, but while that is probably true, it doesn't mean that he deserves the MMA reverence that he gets. People love his stories - the fight on the beach and behind closed doors - but his opponents were not significant combatants.

Obviously he showed the power of BJJ in twice besting the massive Zulu in NHB-type fights in Brazil, in 1980 and 1984. Fine.

So far as I can tell, his opponents at Vale Tudo Japan in '94 and '95 were not notable combatants.

In Pride, he twice fought a fucking pro wrestler, Takada - who had a terrible record of 2 wins and 6 losses (1 of those wins being a fight with Coleman that was probably fixed).

His final fight in 2000 was against another pro wrestler, Funaki, who easily had the strongest credentials of any opponent.

His opponent in the beach fight, Hugo Duarte, didn't beat anyone of note in MMA, and lost to Tank Abbott and Mark Kerr.

His other infamous fight, the unseen scuffle with Yoji Anjo, saw him beat up another pro wrestler - shock - who retired with an MMA record of 0 wins and 5 losses.

With the exception of Funaki, Rickson never fought ANYONE who was legit. His Joe Rogan podcast saw him talking endlessly about streetfights in Brazil (kinda sounds a bit thuggish, but whatever) against people who nobody has ever heard of!

So, basically, as a legit fighter, as opposed to BJJ expert, is it safe to say that the Rickson Gracie myth is nothing but another carefully-managed Gracie informercial?

Rickson's record of 400-0 was called bullshit by his own father. He appears to count rolling in the gym as part of his 400-0 resume. And yet, in his entire life, he was never tapped by anyone? Not even when he was learning? That's ridiculous and implausible. It indicates that Rickson only counts episodes where he came out on top, and conveniently ignores those where he didn't (for instance he has a documented loss in sambo, but simply ignores it). Using Rickon's methodology (ignore where things tanked), we would ALL have a perfect 400-0 record at something or another. Why jeopardise your reputation by fighting Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock etc. and be defeated publicly in a way that you can't deny?

As an aside, in the JRE podcast Rickson mentioned the many BJJ titles that he won in tournaments. I've never seen those listed anywhere, but I'm obviously looking in the wrong place. Could someone point me towards his BJJ titles/resume?

As you can perhaps tell, something about the Rickson myth rubs me the wrong way.
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Completely agree. After watching that video of him and Takada, I almost would get in the ring with Rickson. Not very impressive at all. He was wise to retire before facing anyone in the top tier of the MMA ranks, otherwise he would have his myth status shattered. I don't think he could have hung with today's lightweights if he was still young enough.
 
Graceland said:
Rolls Gracie. Look him up.
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If you were providing an example of a Gracie that lost in the UFC, I believe you meant Rolles (with an "E")

This is Rolls Gracie, his daddy (the guy that is dominating a younger Rickson)...
 
SavageAngel said:
At the time, they were notable combatents. Some came from the early UFCs, even as a runner up, some came from pancrase, and others from Shooto. All notable Orgs at the time, so the Vale Tudo Japan tournies were as legit as they could get at the time. Rickson was 35 years old at the time, and he beat everyone quite handedly. Nowadays we know what happened in the forth coming years, so we know who became succesful, legend, etc.. and who never amounted to anything.

But you have to realise that at that time the people fighting in the Japan Vale Tudo Tournaments were the real deal. Before Pride took over the MMA world, JVT was the first org to legit compete with the early UFC.
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Yes, but you have to realize that at that time, there were much better fighters who Rickson didn't fight. I would say that nobody he beat was even close to being top ten at that time.
 
Tonycpa said:
Believe what you see.

Throughout history, all the best athletes in every sport have always competed against the very best competition in front of the entire world. They rise to the occasion on the biggest stage while the bright lights are on them.

They perform for the highest stakes with their reputation on the line and find a way to overcome the pressure of performing in public.

That's where you find the legit best. Always have, always will. That is why they are called champions.

PS: When you have to ask if someone is legit, you already have your answer. For example, no one ever asks aloud if the guy in my sig is legit.

45 seconds to 50 seconds...
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If GSP had been born in 1958 he wouldn't have accomplished much of anything in the sport of MMA either, no amount of stat gushing can change that.
 
Reffson said:
That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read here at Sherdog. Rickson would have blown through all the early UFC competitors a lot easier than Royce. The Gracies, including Helio, wanted Rickson to take over for Royce but the money was crap so he didn't. Rickson trained Royce for all his fights and was more fit, stronger and more technical than Royce, Renzo, Ralph, all of them. He also hit very hard and was open to other styles (Judo, Boxing, Sambo) to gain advantage.

I remember when the Gracies haters predicted the "modern" Frank Shamrock would easily dispatch of Renzo. Renzo toyed with him and the only reason Ken got the draw against Royce in their second fight was because of rule changes and Ken's HUGE new muscles.
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You obviously didn't understand his point. Not the best fighters of twenty years ago, but today. We all saw how wonderful and aging Royce did in his last fight against an aging Matt Hughes. Matt was the new breed and he got his ass handed to him by the newer breed.
 
Only a huge troll or noob would create a post like this. I'm going to assume you're a noob.

Royce won UFC 1,2 & 4. He won the UFC when it was still in tournament style format, so he had to fighting three guys in one night. And the rules weren't as friendly as they are now.

After a fight in one of the early UFC events, Royce is quoted saying, "if you think i'm good, wait until you see my brother rickson".

Which implies whatever legendary status you place on Royce, Rickson Gracie was beyond him.

Rickson was fighting before the UFC was mainstream. He was fighting a decade before the UFC was even created. Back when MMA was still called cage fighting or No holds barred.

So...there is no measurement for how great rickson was. You'll just have to take the word of the first UFC Legend.
 
Reffson said:
Rickson set his terms, which were not overly rich, and Pride refused. Pride protected Sak from Rickson because they made money from his "Gracie Killer" mantra. Rickson would have wrecked him. Hell Sak needed to cheat against Royler (he did not tap) and Royce, where he used the ropes illegaly and it still took him what, 80 minutes to win? Royce had a broken bone in his leg! A healthy Royce goes about 5 minutes with Rickson. Sak admitted in Grappling Mag that Rickson's demands would not be met by Pride because "nobody make money". What a load of crap. If it the only fight on the card and they charged TWICE as much for a ticket they would have sold out. This is why Pride is gone. Friking crooks running it.
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Dream on! Who do you think broke Royce's leg? Sakuraba would have beaten Rickson too. There's no record of Rickson beating anyone really good, period!
 
GFM said:
You obviously didn't understand his point. Not the best fighters of twenty years ago, but today. We all saw how wonderful and aging Royce did in his last fight against an aging Matt Hughes. Matt was the new breed and he got his ass handed to him by the newer breed.
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Actually, you are wrong.

No where in the initial post does the TC ask, "How would Rickson do against a current Champion".
 
I think he's legit in the way jackie chan is legitimately the drunken master.
 
Ryeboi said:
Only a huge troll or noob would create a post like this. I'm going to assume you're a noob.

Royce won UFC 1,2 & 4. He won the UFC when it was still in tournament style format, so he had to fighting three guys in one night. And the rules weren't as friendly as they are now.

After a fight in one of the early UFC events, Royce is quoted saying, "if you think i'm good, wait until you see my brother rickson".

Which implies whatever legendary status you place on Royce, Rickson Gracie was beyond him.

Rickson was fighting before the UFC was mainstream. He was fighting a decade before the UFC was even created. Back when MMA was still called cage fighting or No holds barred.

So...there is no measurement for how great rickson was. You'll just have to take the word of the first UFC Legend.
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I have this funny, unusual thing I like to do. It's called thinking for myself. I just don't believe what I'm told just because someone else says I should. I like to see proof and make judgements after examining the facts. In case of Rickson, there really is no proof, just a bunch of people, mostly who don't even know Rickson, saying he was that great.
 
the guy is like 1000-0 pay some respect
 
Ryeboi said:
Actually, you are wrong.

No where in the initial post does the TC ask, "How would Rickson do against a current Champion".
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He said modern top thirty, not top thirty back then. You are wrong.
 
jodyc81 said:
I think its similar to his brother royce, he won the ufc when mma wasnt mma yet, by that i mean there was a mix of styles in the octogon but not one person was good all round, so with both royce and rickson we see how effective BJJ was and can be against fighters who were not even white belt level BJJ.
As the sport has progressed weve seen how top level bjj guys such as gracie family member roger gracie struggle to get the fight to the ground where he can be effective.
Rickson and royce have to be respected for getting in there and putting there style and family name on the line in NHB fights and they could only fight the guys that were around at the time.
I believe Rickson with the right training could of done well in this day and age, with his physique, flexibility and dedication to training he could learn quick, he would just need to be at a quality striking/mma gym to help him learn stand up and transition from standing to the ground, but if he was put in the ufc now with the skill set he had back then i believe he gets beaten badly.
I cant find any BJJ tournament accomplishments, Hes an 8th degree red and black belt, going by his fellow family members including his son Kron who is one of the best Grapplers around now, Rickson was the best Gracie jiu jitsu practitioner, the mantle of best competition jiu jitsu practitioner has to go to Roger Gracie.
Rickson's 400 undefeated record can not be verified and given the level of NHB competition and lack of BJJ competition history you'd have to say his legend does sound part myth and hear say, i would say he is a legend along with Royce in terms of being a pioneer of BJJ and NHB and bringing it to the attention of rest of the world.
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And look how well Roger Gracie has done. The two good MMA fighters he's gone up against, he's lost.
 
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