Don’t Build Your BJJ Game on White Belt Techniques. (Stephan kesting)

2 things
1. My coach said that for a while he considered the back to be a sub-par position, because people had trouble finishing. Then Marcelo went on a rampage with it, and popular opinion changed.

2. I started using the Americana from quarter mount as a way to get to the giftwrap and the back last year, and I'm having a fair amount of success with it. Enough that I can catch guys better than me in the loop, and that some of them have started implementing it themselves. I'm going to keep on exploring that.
 
The basics will work at any level, your skill at setting it up determine its effectiveness.

Americana can still work in a chain of submissions or to set up something else.

Sometimes it's the lack of important detail or leaving too much space that makes a white belt technique.
 
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Kesting is right.

I've never been calf sliced, and I haven't been Americana'd since blue belt.

Not that they don't work, but they simply aren't high percentage subs that have a broad window of application against good competitors.

Sad truth.
 
Calf slicer is very hard to get on good guys, but the power is very real once you have the position. Americana is just never going to be a very high percentage sub at the top level, regardless of how much you drill it or try to make it your own.

Still, I think we're getting a little bogged down in Kesting's specific examples rather than the core message, which is good.
 
I like to use the Americana more for creating space on the bottom and sweeping. I've found I can recognize when my opponent has their arm in a position when I can snatch it real quick and they are forced to react. People are very aware of their arm position in relation to someone going for a kimura, but a lot don't seem to think about the americana
 
Roger made a living off of tapping out elite black belts with moves that are taught as white belt.
 
While you can argue what is "high percentage" or not till the cows come home. I think the big thing that can be taken away from Marcelo's and Roger's example, along with what Holt said is this.

Everyone's style and body-type is different, and while fundamentals will always be the fundamentals. The key is to find a technique that fits you and master it, it can be a "basic" technique like Roger's cross collar choke or Jordan Burroughs' Double or an "advanced" one like Rafa Mendes' berimbolo or Satiev's throws/footsweeps.

But when I say mastery I don't just mean using it more than other things. I mean using it so much that you have an entire series of attacks based on the opponents reaction and you know how to make it work even when people know it is coming.
So honestly.. I wouldn't be surprised if someone did come along with an Americana based game who wasn't a hulk
 
I think the reason we don't see people dominating with specific techniques such as the Americana or calf slicer is because the vast majority of people spend less time perfecting them and developing systems around them to increase their chances of hitting these moves. People spend countless hours developing set up after set up to moves such as arm bars, chokes, Kimura's etc. if that same amount of time and energy was focused on creating set ups and focusing on finishing the Americana or calf slicer you would see way more finishes with these techniques.

Remember, not too long ago people weren't heel-hooking nearly as much. The move was over-looked in favor of other attacks. Danaher and a few other high level guys popularized the techniques and proved their efficacy and created entire systems based on finishing leg locks. I believe the same can be done for any technique, maybe not to the same degree. But anyone willing to put the time in to perfect a move can increase their chances of hitting it significantly. If roger can win the mundials cross collar choking people, then I believe it's possible for someone to achieve similar results using other basic techniques such as the Americana
 
Zlec said:
Remember, not too long ago people weren't heel-hooking nearly as much.
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Because they are literally banned in the most popular format. I don't think you can compare the situations.
 
Zlec said:
I think the reason we don't see people dominating with specific techniques such as the Americana or calf slicer is because the vast majority of people spend less time perfecting them and developing systems around them to increase their chances of hitting these moves. People spend countless hours developing set up after set up to moves such as arm bars, chokes, Kimura's etc. if that same amount of time and energy was focused on creating set ups and focusing on finishing the Americana or calf slicer you would see way more finishes with these techniques.

Remember, not too long ago people weren't heel-hooking nearly as much. The move was over-looked in favor of other attacks. Danaher and a few other high level guys popularized the techniques and proved their efficacy and created entire systems based on finishing leg locks. I believe the same can be done for any technique, maybe not to the same degree. But anyone willing to put the time in to perfect a move can increase their chances of hitting it significantly. If roger can win the mundials cross collar choking people, then I believe it's possible for someone to achieve similar results using other basic techniques such as the Americana
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Nothing to do with basic. Exact opposite. Arm bar and generic collar choke from back are far and away the biggest killers in the gi, despite being day 1 subs. Americana is super common at low levels but just stops working well. It is a very common sub that just isn't easy to hit against a good opponent.
 
Zankou said:
Nothing to do with basic. Exact opposite. Arm bar and generic collar choke from back are far and away the biggest killers in the gi, despite being day 1 subs. Americana is super common at low levels but just stops working well. It is a very common sub that just isn't easy to hit against a good opponent.
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Also if you are in a position to americana (from side control anyway) you are probably in a position where you can take the back. Points reward the back and it is a far more solid position.
 
Also, I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what Kesting is saying. IMO he isn't saying don't rely on moves you learn as a white belt. I think he is saying don't rely on moves that only work on white belts, so RNC's, X chokes etc are still good.
 
Zankou said:
Nothing to do with basic. Exact opposite. Arm bar and generic collar choke from back are far and away the biggest killers in the gi, despite being day 1 subs. Americana is super common at low levels but just stops working well. It is a very common sub that just isn't easy to hit against a good opponent.
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That's my point though. Armbars and generic collar choke are just as basic movements as an americana. But it's the countless set ups and transitions people perfect and apply that make them so effective. My point is that if someone were to invest their time and effort they could perfect various set ups and transitions that make the Americana just as effective.
 
But tons of people do. It just doesn't work. It's not that people haven't tried. It's just that it isn't true that for every technique there are subterranean details that will make it as good and practical as any other technique .... If only, someday, somebody discovers them.
 
It sounds like a lot of people are interpreting the term "white belt techniques" as pertaining to techniques taught at white belt. When I read the article, I thought he was using the term to refer to techniques that you only really manage to pull of successfully on white belts... Anybody else interpret the term in this manner?
 
Also, I have a question. I'm still white belt (3 years in... sigh...) and mainly roll whites and blues, sometimes a purple or two (in which case it's defense mode) and when I get the chance at a seminar or something, browns and blacks (no me machuque!). I have a lot of success setting up the americana from side control, where my arm sneaks behind the head and catches the wrist, then I lock up grips and then all in one motion switch my hips through to a reverse kesa type position while I circle my underhead arm around and back in to where it should be. I drop my shoulder into the other guy hard, and turn my hips up towards the ceiling similar to that movement drill where you sitout then step back over and repeat ad infinitum. Comes on really quick. It works good for me now, but would it be best to maybe focus more on some other subs?
 
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These Two Hands said:
Also, I have a question. I'm still white belt (3 years in... sigh...) and mainly roll whites and blues, sometimes a purple or two (in which case it's defense mode) and when I get the chance at a seminar or something, browns and blacks (no me machuque!). I have a lot of success setting up the americana from side control, where my arm sneaks behind the head and catches the wrist, then I lock up grips and then all in one motion switch my hips through to a reverse kesa type position while I circle my underhead arm around and back in to where it should be. I drop my shoulder into the other guy hard, and turn my hips up towards the ceiling similar to that movement drill where you sitout then step back over and repeat ad infinitum. Comes on really quick. It works good for me now, but would it be best to maybe focus more on some other subs?
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Idk bout you guys, but I hit the Americana from mount all the time, and from side lol.
 
The source article is inadequate. Lumping all relevant techniques under armbar, and of course it has a high incidence. That doesn't tell you anything about the types of armbar.

Kimura and Americana should be compiled as one technique, if 'armbar' is one technique.
 
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