Don’t Build Your BJJ Game on White Belt Techniques. (Stephan kesting)

[BJJ_Rage]

I think one important point for me is that "high percentage" and "low percentage" depends on whose hands the technique is in. For example, berimbolo may be great for miyao because it's his game. Others don't use it because of body type or preference or whatever and it will be lower percentage for them. Americana may be low percentage for many but some have mastered it and demonstrate success at the highest level.

So I think that what is basic can become advanced as mastery is obtained. What is low percentage for some is high percentage for others.

I think the idea of "white belt moves" is a false paradigm.

please give example of people who have masterred and dominated with americanas.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

not disputing that its low percentage, just saying its not impossible that someone will come along in the future and start dominating with it.

I think it is. The move has been around for a loooooot of time, yet not one single person (not called gaby) has been able to dominate with it.

 

[aus101]

Haha, not true. Not worthy of a long post to explain how you are wrong.

So the move doesn't utilise leverage (and thus strength)?

The fact the move requires a "grip" alone means it's already highly dependant on strength (grip strength), while muscle (and the involved ligaments and tendons) is what's resisting the torsion in the first place.

If you could magically gain 10 kilos of muscle your Americana offence and defence would be greatly improved, with no actual increase in skill. More so than many other "moves" or positions in BJJ.

 

[Gambledub]

my bad I didnt see this one... I guess I was wrong, there was one, sorry about that.

To be fair that's a long ass gif lmao!

 

[Gambledub]

So the move doesn't utilise leverage (and thus strength)?

The fact the move requires a "grip" alone means it's already highly dependant on strength (grip strength), while muscle (and the involved ligaments and tendons) is what's resisting the torsion in the first place.

If you could magically gain 10 kilos of muscle your Americana offence and defence would be greatly improved, with no actual increase in skill. More so than many other "moves" or positions in BJJ.

This describes nearly everything in BJJ.

 

[BrainBar]

Good stuff. I went to IBJJF ATLANT last weekend to watch some teammates. Watched as many brown and black belt matches as I could. Everything was basics. Scoring points via side and mount. Basic sweeps. The main difference I saw was how fast and precise they moved, yet under control. Subs were also the basics. See the same thing in high level MMA matches. The jiujitsu is usually the basics.

The fancy shit is cool and sometimes works but usually the basics.

Saw one black belt match where a guy was trying Berimbolo and lapel guard and all sorts of inverted and tricky stuff. The opponent stayed calm. Stayed heavy with great base. Methodically worked through to better positions and eventually scoring points. He won something like 12-2.

 

[DrJitsu]

please give example of people who have masterred and dominated with americanas.

Well I think someone mentioned Jon jones using it for a win. And someone mentioned domynika.

I think gambledub's point is well taken about using the Americana to set up other moves. That a lot of what BJJ is- using one move to set up another. An Americana that is enough of a threat to get someone to expose another opening is a high level, successful Americana in my opinion.

I also agree with the point that people who are bigger and stronger will have more success with the Americana. This goes to the point I was making about high percentage for some is low percentage for others.

My main point is that I don't believe that there is a set of "white belt moves" that are low yield. These moves can be mastered and are often highly effective if integrated and personalized into one's game. Ignore the "basics" at your own peril.

 

[RabbleRowser]

I've seen professor Jucao finish black belts with the Americana from mount.

Also I honestly feel like people don't use it right, like some people attempt it but don't transition into other attacks like they should.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Well I think someone mentioned Jon jones using it for a win. And someone mentioned domynika.

I think gambledub's point is well taken about using the Americana to set up other moves. That a lot of what BJJ is- using one move to set up another. An Americana that is enough of a threat to get someone to expose another opening is a high level, successful Americana in my opinion.

I also agree with the point that people who are bigger and stronger will have more success with the Americana. This goes to the point I was making about high percentage for some is low percentage for others.

My main point is that I don't believe that there is a set of "white belt moves" that are low yield. These moves can be mastered and are often highly effective if integrated and personalized into one's game. Ignore the "basics" at your own peril.

sure there are exemptions, Vitor doesnt count that much because he was getting fucked up. Dominyka yes, my point was that there has not being anyone able to dominate with the move, the way marcelo dominates with the RNC, or Roger with the crosscollar you get my point....

once again, white belts moves does not mean low % moves. Americana is a very low % move, but is as much as a white belt move as the RNC is.

 

[freakroor]

I was at a tournament where a whitebelt didnt tap to an americana. His shoulder popped so loud everyone in the arena heard it, and he passed out immediately from the pain

 

[Dirty Holt]

I highly disagree and I will tell you why:

BJJ is a very young sport. We are talking maybe 15 years of solid high level world tournaments. In addition, most practitioners come from 2 cultures.

Now, look at wrestling which has had world level tournaments since the ancient Olympics, and every country on earth is competing.

Wrestling, in contrast to what Mr Kesting is stating, has practioners at the elite level with wildly different successful techniques. It has so much variety and many things work that do not seem like they should work or that coaches say are junk moves. Why is this?

The reason is simple. Wrestlers have always known that the techniques that work the best are the ones that suit your body type and that you drill more than all others. There are techniques that are lower percentage, but that is because a lower percentage of athletes put in thousands of reps on those techniques. They dont start with those techniques in gradeschool and hammer them out til adulthood. Peewee coaches will sometimes think along the same lines as Mr Kesting. "Because singles and doubles are the highest percentage of takedowns at NCAA's, they are the best and that is what we will focus on. No head and arms, no firemans, no throws because those are low percentage" In theory, that works, until you go to places like Russia or Mongolia where firemans carrys and throws are drilled from the start. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

BJJ is exactly the same. There are techniques that are less successful because almost no one perfects them and makes them a staple of their technique. Lets take Marcello for example. I would bet money that he has drilled and pulled off 10,000 guillotines in his life. In competition, he has proven that that technique, for him, can beat the best. Now, if Marcello had 10,000 Americanas from side, he could pull that off in competition just like a guillotine. We would have the Marcelacana. Even the rubber guard, which many bash as ineffective, was shown to be effective against one of the greatest of all time when Bravo took on Royler. Was it because the technique was good or bad? No, it was because Eddie had thousands and thousands of hours in that position and made it work for him.

 

[kpoz12]

If Ronda had spent the time she did on armbars on rAre kimoras dwl etc.

thanx m8

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I highly disagree and I will tell you why:

BJJ is a very young sport. We are talking maybe 15 years of solid high level world tournaments. In addition, most practitioners come from 2 cultures.

Now, look at wrestling which has had world level tournaments since the ancient Olympics, and every country on earth is competing.

Wrestling, in contrast to what Mr Kesting is stating, has practioners at the elite level with wildly different successful techniques. It has so much variety and many things work that do not seem like they should work or that coaches say are junk moves. Why is this?

The reason is simple. Wrestlers have always known that the techniques that work the best are the ones that suit your body type and that you drill more than all others. There are techniques that are lower percentage, but that is because a lower percentage of athletes put in thousands of reps on those techniques. They dont start with those techniques in gradeschool and hammer them out til adulthood. Peewee coaches will sometimes think along the same lines as Mr Kesting. "Because singles and doubles are the highest percentage of takedowns at NCAA's, they are the best and that is what we will focus on. No head and arms, no firemans, no throws because those are low percentage" In theory, that works, until you go to places like Russia or Mongolia where firemans carrys and throws are drilled from the start. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

BJJ is exactly the same. There are techniques that are less successful because almost no one perfects them and makes them a staple of their technique. Lets take Marcello for example. I would bet money that he has drilled and pulled off 10,000 guillotines in his life. In competition, he has proven that that technique, for him, can beat the best. Now, if Marcello had 10,000 Americanas from side, he could pull that off in competition just like a guillotine. We would have the Marcelacana. Even the rubber guard, which many bash as ineffective, was shown to be effective against one of the greatest of all time when Bravo took on Royler. Was it because the technique was good or bad? No, it was because Eddie had thousands and thousands of hours in that position and made it work for him.

not to try to nitpick your post, but eddie didnt really have success with his rg vs royler, it was his hf what worked for him, may be you are refering to the first match, when he stalled a bit from it, but the triangle came from a regular triangle set up also.

anyways, in general terms you might be right, but in this specific case, the americana, I just dont see it. You have to fuck it up too bad to be caught in one...

 

[Dirty Holt]

not to try to nitpick your post, but eddie didnt really have success with his rg vs royler, it was his hf what worked for him, may be you are refering to the first match, when he stalled a bit from it, but the triangle came from a regular triangle set up also.

anyways, in general terms you might be right, but in this specific case, the americana, I just dont see it. You have to fuck it up too bad to be caught in one...

I meant lockdown

 

[dmwalking]

Seems a little closed minded to me. I also disagree with the calf slicer point.

I think I get his point though. Don't try to build a game around moves that appear to be low percentage at the higher levels. Focus more on high percentage moves. That's a fair point. Still disagree about the calf slicer though.

I would like to see the failure/success rate. How many armbars were attempted vs how many failed. I'm guessing not many calf slicers were attempted, but they probably had a higher success rate.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I would like to see the failure/success rate. How many armbars were attempted vs how many failed. I'm guessing not many calf slicers were attempted, but they probably had a higher success rate.

USA Wrestling does a study every world championship and every Olympic games that shows the percentages of moves scored, and uses it as data. Well, when I was there it showed that single legs, pushouts, and go behinds were the highest percentage moves. What it really showed was which moves scored the most, compared to other moves, not the scoring percentage

One of our Olympians asked to see the number of what the scoring percentage rates were of all moves studies. You then had armshuck/slideby scoring the highest with above 90%. Next were firemans carry and hip/headlock throws. All three of those techniques showed the lowest scoring percentage amongst other moves, but were the highest scoring percentage in efficiency.

This shows that guys who are good with signature moves, score a higher percentage with those moves than basics. It also shows that having less common signature moves are more efficient than trying to be the best in the world at moves that everyone has elite level defense against.

 

[dmwalking]

Solid post Holt. Makes total sense.

 

[yetanother]

I think one important point for me is that "high percentage" and "low percentage" depends on whose hands the technique is in. For example, berimbolo may be great for miyao because it's his game. Others don't use it because of body type or preference or whatever and it will be lower percentage for them. Americana may be low percentage for many but some have mastered it and demonstrate success at the highest level.

So I think that what is basic can become advanced as mastery is obtained. What is low percentage for some is high percentage for others.

I think the idea of "white belt moves" is a false paradigm.

The specific americana from side control I have been taught and seen white belt taught is a extreme brute force technique.
There are no doubt better ways to do that work.

 

[jack36767]

I highly disagree and I will tell you why:

BJJ is a very young sport. We are talking maybe 15 years of solid high level world tournaments. In addition, most practitioners come from 2 cultures.

Now, look at wrestling which has had world level tournaments since the ancient Olympics, and every country on earth is competing.

Wrestling, in contrast to what Mr Kesting is stating, has practioners at the elite level with wildly different successful techniques. It has so much variety and many things work that do not seem like they should work or that coaches say are junk moves. Why is this?

The reason is simple. Wrestlers have always known that the techniques that work the best are the ones that suit your body type and that you drill more than all others. There are techniques that are lower percentage, but that is because a lower percentage of athletes put in thousands of reps on those techniques. They dont start with those techniques in gradeschool and hammer them out til adulthood. Peewee coaches will sometimes think along the same lines as Mr Kesting. "Because singles and doubles are the highest percentage of takedowns at NCAA's, they are the best and that is what we will focus on. No head and arms, no firemans, no throws because those are low percentage" In theory, that works, until you go to places like Russia or Mongolia where firemans carrys and throws are drilled from the start. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

BJJ is exactly the same. There are techniques that are less successful because almost no one perfects them and makes them a staple of their technique. Lets take Marcello for example. I would bet money that he has drilled and pulled off 10,000 guillotines in his life. In competition, he has proven that that technique, for him, can beat the best. Now, if Marcello had 10,000 Americanas from side, he could pull that off in competition just like a guillotine. We would have the Marcelacana. Even the rubber guard, which many bash as ineffective, was shown to be effective against one of the greatest of all time when Bravo took on Royler. Was it because the technique was good or bad? No, it was because Eddie had thousands and thousands of hours in that position and made it work for him.

This, my middle and high school in Ohio hit fireman's as a team, and old school head-in-the-holes from front headlocks. There are a lot of coaches who frown on those techniques as not working on good kids.. my team punched way above its weight with them

 

[RTD1]

I hit people, including those of higher rank than me and of equal or greater size, with Americanas from half guard top on a pretty regular basis. There are plenty of different setups and finishes apart from the "2 on 1 hulk smash". And another guy at our gym is just sick with biceps slicers and calf slicers.