Do you think BJ's legacy suffered from him fighting way past his prime?

The "in-shape BJ" conversation always makes me think, maybe more than I ought to.

I suppose it has truth to it. But I look at a guy with a small frame moving up to WW and I see a guy that has to move around heavier opponents that won't have to work as hard to move him. I also recognize that more mass means more demand on a fighter's cardio-vascular system. He didn't have the build for WW, but we can all agree that the one part of him as a fighter that was sized right for WW was his heart. When fighters figured out that grinding BJ down with wrestling would make him ineffectual, they had their faith in time being on their side. And they were right. Those bastards.

It's crazy he dominated an ATG in Hughes, and brought a peaking GSP to the brink when most people were getting dominated by Rush. Let's not forget that he tooth and nailed Fitch to a draw when Fitch was peaking too. It's really hard to topple a peaking fighter, on a spree, that believes in himself. BJ got a draw from such a guy, by wrestling him at his own game. And Fitch? Well, for whatever reason, Fitch never looked as consistent afterward.

LW BJ was lights out. He had good power in both hands, a frustrating jab, and a savvy punch selection for an MMA practitioner. You couldn't take him down for the first three rounds and you had to work at it in the champ rounds. He also had a brutal top game. I don't hear as many people priase his top game like they should. He could trap a guy and make them feel like a boa constrictor sprouted arms and started punching them while they're all wrapped up. It was better than his work from the bottom which was mostly focused on holding a guy with his Stretch-Armstrong legs and waiting for the stand up.

No. I don't wag a finger at a man who dares to be great. I don't penalize a fighter for fighting. When they take risks and come up short, I don't short-change their legacy.
 
Hes a legend for sure but is extremly overrated.
 
Great fighter and a stupid man. Absolute hubris when he took on Nick and Rory. The sport had matured and jumping weight classes on a whim was no longer feasible. Every time I listened to BJ talk I was dumber for it. Annoying and tiresome. He had skills and was damn tough. Earned his place but never could stand him. Wtf was that tippy toes stuff? Legacy, nah he didn't hurt it but he didn't expand it either, certainly not like some of the other greats who had late career good runs.
 
to newer fans, yes. and it hurts to look at his career today since im a fan of his. he should have hung it up after the diaz beatdown if not that the rory/edgar III losses. he's one of the p4p best ever, and is a legend of the sport who had 2 belts. nothing else to say
 
I'll share one of my first memories of BJ:

It was 2 am on a weeknight at Aunty Young's(bar) in Hilo. And this local kid is going to be having his 1st fight in the UFC. He's going to be going against an all-american wrestler Joey Gilbert. He should be in a serious training camp, but instead he's drinking beers in the bar with a bunch of other people. I order that UFC anyway since back then they were far and few in between - but I was thinking another hometown fighter is going to get merked. He didn't take the fight seriously. Pulling a Div-1 All-american wrestler was problems by itself. I couldn't fathom how you could imagine you were going to do well when less than a week before the fight you're drinking late into the night.

So what happens? Someone got merked... but it wasn't BJ. Then down went Din. Finally a huge step up in competition in Caol Uno. I figured this would be his loss. Fight ended in 11 seconds. Damn. He was still at the bar.
 
Not really. I think it shows the kind of attitude he had (bit lazy, bit delusional) but we already knew he was like that and it was what made him interesting. Nobody sane is going to fight Machida at HW the same as nobody sane is going to fight Frankie Edgar for a third time after getting old and showing nothing. Same impetus, different result.
 
If bj had come along nowadays hed have been better off. He could have made big money staying at 155. Where mma was at the time,he chased bigger fights not just for the money but because of the challenge. He could have all he could get nowadays in one weight class,stay motivated.
 
Espresso said:
How long would Khabib, Tony Ferguson and Connor last with Miocic or Ngannou in an octagon?

BJ fought undeafeated Machida who had never lost a round, and went to distance.

BJ is a goat.
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Better comparison to Machida would be a Gustaffson or Cormier. I think Ferguson or Khabib could probably survive those fights.
 
marvinparsons said:
Better comparison to Machida would be a Gustaffson or Cormier. I think Ferguson or Khabib could probably survive those fights.
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Both are shit comparisons. A fat Machida was not close to what he became in the UFC when he fought Penn. Not to take away from what Penn did, but you are crazy if you think fat Machida in his 6th fight = DC or Gus
 
fractal said:
But the guy was the definition of a warrior.
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He was kinda a front runner who would give up when the fight didn't go his way. I think he is LWs GOAT and a top 10 ever, but he is not close to the definition of a warrior. Someone like Wandy, Frankie or Saku is

He had more balls then anyone, but balls don't = heart
 
Nope. I recognize the accomplishments,
 
BJ Penn just continued his legacy, in my honest opinion. I always viewed him as true fighter's fighter. He embodied the "Fight anyone, anywhere, anytime" saying that fighters love to quote. One of the truly best lightweights to have ever graced the sport.
 
Myrddin Wild said:
For example: If Spider keeps fighting until he's 100 years old & he stacks up another 75 losses on top of his current record... that takes nothing away from what he was able to accomplish against the worlds best competition in his prime.
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Except you can't cherry pick where a fighter's prime ends.

Fedor was only 32-33 when he got mauled by Werdum, Big Foot and TRT Dan.

BJ started losing at 31 and is 1-7-1 in his last 9...

Aldo got murked by McGregor at the young age of 28, and is now on a 1-3 skid. Are you telling me 28 is past prime?

The only one with a reasonable excuse is Silva, who was 38 when he got flattened by Teh Chris.

They don't magically get past their prime, they just meet better fighters and the aura fades.
 
Bodil said:
Except you can't cherry pick where a fighter's prime ends.

Fedor was only 32-33 when he got mauled by Werdum, Big Foot and TRT Dan.

BJ started losing at 31 and is 1-7-1 in his last 9...

Aldo got murked by McGregor at the young age of 28, and is now on a 1-3 skid. Are you telling me 28 is past prime?

The only one with a reasonable excuse is Silva, who was 38 when he got flattened by Teh Chris.

They don't magically get past their prime, they just meet better fighters and the aura fades.
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You seem to be leaving "competition mileage" out of the equation. As best I can tell... you are time stamping 38 as an acceptable age to be out of your prime... however anything lower is not acceptable to you.

You are wrong to draw a line & say that 38 years old (or any particular age) is the one & only point that is acceptable terms in which someone can be classified as "Beyond their prime." Every individual is different & they have their individual reasons for peaking at certain times.

FFS... you don't think Fedor had enough wars to accept that at whatever age he declined is due to the hard road behind him? You're going to dismiss those wins of his that were against higher level of competition, some of which moved on to become UFC champs or once were. You think you can say that Aldo hadn't taken a legitimate amount of damage prior to his losses to justify him being beyond his prime no matter what the age? I disagree, & I find your comment on "cherry picking" a prime age to be inaccurate.

Now BJ is really an individual case within himself... he sometimes just doesn't give a f*ck & sometimes he shows up to fight & sometimes he doesn't. Outside of that strangeness... he also jumped multiple divisions to fight. The Nick Diaz & Rory Mcdonald losses were 2 divisions above his.

Outside of that, Frankie obviously had his number... so that's one guy... in his weight who was responsible for 3 of his losses... & 2 that were multiple divisions above his. So Maybe he was in his prime & just got beat... but it doesn't change his past accomplishments by any means.

The point of my post that you're responding to is that taking losses like that does not change your accomplishments of the past. You seem to be saying that it has to do with the level of competition getting better that they started losing. I would agree that it is true that "more people" are more well rounded fighters in this day & age than the early days... however BJ beating prime Matt Hughes at UFC 46 can't be explained in your logic... as well as many of the others he has wins over. Many of them would be at the top even today.

You are trying to take away those wins from his legacy under a false pretense that the level of competition he faced is less than today. I'm not saying everyone he faced was all that, but it's a pretty damn impressive resume... & those wins actually happened & can never be taken away no matter how many more he loses. That underlined part just above is my key point. I'm just saying that more present losses does not take away from past victories.

You also are leaving out of your equations that if the sport wasn't that well developed from the top to the bottom of the division... how much more noteworthy it is for the OG champs to be ahead of their time in order to be well rounded & advance to the top of their era. That's another reason you cannot accurately dismiss their past in light of what became an inevitable losing streak.
 
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Personally I hope the genius gets that urge to fight again, maybe this time at 185 so everyone can talk about how brave he is. The machida Penn fight sucked so who cares if it happened. Diaz and Rory mauled him. I know, a fighters fighter. I say he just wasn't very bright.
 
Have always been a Penn supporter but July 6th,2014 when he fought Edgar a 3rd time and in an uncompetitive fight, was punched out in 3rd round.Thats where things should've ended - his days as a top tier fighter were over (probably before that).After that, b.j even being a ranked fighter was in question and that should've been an "unacceptable reality" for b.j himself.He should've called it a day after that....sorry to say.
 
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