Do you consider Central/South America part of the west? If not, you might be a racist

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

This is a political discussion board though, and a purely cultural definition of "the West" (which includes Warsaw pact countries from Eastern Europe) is only good for identity politics.
Which then falls foul of the fact that his board is dominated by the US, and their current infestation of right-wing identity politics "others" Latin America.

Not sure I understand this post.

 

[Rod1]

I disagree with that. First of all the original meaning of criollo has been obfuscated. Creole originally meant black men and women born in the Americas. To taint and subordinate white Spaniards born in the Americas, the word was adopted and fit to mean any.

I never heard about that origin of the word, Criollo in Mexico has always been the word reserved for American-born pure-Spanish.

Criollos were the cultural and economic elite, but were barred from political power by Peninsulares, Criollos were the ones that drove most independence movements as a way to take away power from Peninsulares.

Miguel Hidalgo, Morelos, Bolivar, Rondeau, Iturbude all criollos.

I'll name a couple for Colonial Peru, which my research is more interested in at the moment. One institution that was kept in a highly indigenous area of Peru named Chucuito was polygamy (which was a practice reserved for the Inca nobles). Furthermore, according to tradition, only married women were allowed to weave, which the privilege notes that there was a traditional hierarchy that remained. One more thing...the church and the state (since they were in a symbiosis at the time) attempted to subvert the traditional labor rights of the inca by exacting tribute from single and widowed women (a practice that was not traditional) and many people legally and illegally resisted this. One form of resistance was obviously war, rebellion, etc, but another was founding their own communities away from colonial administrators and from colonial law. People in Latin America are not passive spectators that humbly accept Europeanness on the virtue of its heavily argued superiority. Oftentimes they are coerced by the state or other colonial administrators into following their "norms", but that does not mean that indigenous practices do not remain. Women of Latin America, much like women around the world, bear the majority of the weight of cultural reproduction.

Ill say that i dont know Peruvians but i doubt these cultural instiutions really survived, i dont think polygamy is common or even legal in Peru.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

No.

I've lived in Ecuador and visited Guatemala numerous times. Public schools are nonexistent, they look like ruins, while private schools are hard to afford. The divide between the rich and poor is like the divide between CM Punk and Jon Jones.

Children are running around selling cigarettes and chiklets, McDonald's and store plazas are guarded by security with automatic rifles, you can't safely walk around large swaths of the cities, I remember people getting murdered for their shoes, I dread to even think about the public hospitals. It's a shitshow.

I'm very lucky to live in the US.

so theyre poor and underdeveloped. how does this exclude them from western culture?

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Let's not forget that some people don't even consider Greece, the birthplace of modern Western culture, or Italy, which exported that culture via Rome, as part of the West. So, I'm going to assume that Central and South America which are basically the outgrowth of Spain's culture, aren't considered the West either.

Of course, that's a strange perspective. The birthplaces of western culture aren't the West and the lineal outgrowths of western culture aren't the West.

Maybe it's a latitude thing. You can't be in the West if you're below a certain latitude?

maybe the anglo culture began to dominate "the west," and thats where this feeling comes from.

 

[panamaican]

maybe the anglo culture began to dominate "the west," and thats where this feeling comes from.

Maybe I think it's debatable if it actually happened.

 

[The ScorpioN]

so theyre poor and underdeveloped. how does this exclude them from western culture?

How do you define Western culture?

I'm defining the West as being developed first world countries, including levels of violence, women's rights (healthcare, infant mortality, education attainment), levels of government corruption, working institutions, etc.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Let's not forget that some people don't even consider Greece, the birthplace of modern Western culture, or Italy, which exported that culture via Rome, as part of the West. So, I'm going to assume that Central and South America which are basically the outgrowth of Spain's culture, aren't considered the West either.

Of course, that's a strange perspective. The birthplaces of western culture aren't the West and the lineal outgrowths of western culture aren't the West.

Maybe it's a latitude thing. You can't be in the West if you're below a certain latitude?

And yet the same people will claim Japan as part of the West despite the fact that its as East as you can get, geographically and culturally.

Basically, they use "the West" as a stand in for "nations that are successful and that I like"

 

[Islam Imamate]

How do you define Western culture?

I'm defining the West as being developed first world countries, including levels of violence, women's rights (healthcare, infant mortality, education attainment), levels of government corruption, working institutions, etc.

Under that definition Japan would be part of the West while most of Latin America wouldn't be but that's silly, Japan is as East Asian as it gets.

Western culture refers to culture that is rooted in Europe(particularly Western and Southern Europe and nto so much Eastern Europe) with culture being defined by things like language and religion. Its obviously the case that a person born in the Western hemisphere has more in common culturally with Western or Southern Europe than one born in Japan.

 

[Pupi]

Criollos were the cultural and economic elite, but were barred from political power by Peninsulares, Criollos were the ones that drove most independence movements as a way to take away power from Peninsulares.

Miguel Hidalgo, Morelos, Bolivar, Rondeau, Iturbude all criollos.

Criollos, much like the ones you mentioned, were mestizos. Criollo, or Creole, was a term that applied to a range of people and it was used in Spanish, French, and Portuguese colonies. Would you consider it off the mark to consider Toussaint Louverture, Vicente Guerrero (curiously not mentioned in your list), Antonio Maceo, Maximo Gomez, Calixto Garcia, etc as criollos?

 

[The ScorpioN]

Under that definition Japan would be part of the West while most of Latin America wouldn't be but that's silly, Japan is as East Asian as it gets.

Western culture refers to culture that is rooted in Europe(particularly Western and Southern Europe and nto so much Eastern Europe) with culture being defined by things like language and religion. Its obviously the case that a person born in the Western hemisphere has more in common culturally with Western or Southern Europe than one born in Japan.

Sure.

The definition is stretchable and malleable. Places like Argentina and Chile could be approaching what a layman's "Western" definition would be.

I'm not going to be quibbling definitions. Once you step foot in Guatemala city, you'd be hard pressed to call it Western even if they're wearing pants, are Christian, and are selling you Coca-Cola. You do feel pretty Western in heavily guarded restaurants, the service and food are top notch.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Sure.

The definition is stretchable and malleable. Places like Argentina and Chile could be approaching what a layman's "Western" definition would be.

I'm not going to be quibbling definitions. Once you step foot in Guatemala city, you'd be hard pressed to call it Western even if they're wearing pants, are Christian, and are selling you Coca-Cola.

For me development doesn't matter as much as actual culture. Some cathedrals in Latin America are absolutely stunning, marvelous displays of Western culture. If you look at Japan, its very much quintessentially Eastern. So even if most of Latin America is a shithole its still very much Western in its culture with the exception fo the marginalized indigenous culture.

IMO, conflating "Western" with "developed" is just confusing in light of the issues I mentioned and it also has an implicit assumption that "West=good, not West=shit" which sort of grinds my gears. That said, you're not alone in that usage so I'm not going to complain too much about it.

 

[DespicablePeep]

How do you define Western culture?

I'm defining the West as being developed first world countries, including levels of violence, women's rights (healthcare, infant mortality, education attainment), levels of government corruption, working institutions, etc.

Thats not western culture, you are confusing living standards to culture. Argentina, Uruguay and to a lesser extend most of Brazil are direct descendants of europeans.

 

[BangersAndSmash]

Once you step foot in Guatemala city, you'd be hard pressed to call it Western even if they're wearing pants, are Christian, and are selling you Coca-Cola. You do feel pretty Western in heavily guarded restaurants, the service and food are top notch.

So a dangerous city isn't Western?

Shit.

There goes Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, New Orleans, Memphis, and Chicago.

 

[The ScorpioN]

So a dangerous city isn't Western?

Shit.

There goes Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, New Orleans, Memphis, and Chicago.

Indeed.

There are definitely "third world" pockets across the "first world".

 

[Rod1]

Criollos, much like the ones you mentioned, were mestizos. Criollo, or Creole, was a term that applied to a range of people and it was used in Spanish, French, and Portuguese colonies. Would you consider it off the mark to consider Toussaint Louverture, Vicente Guerrero (curiously not mentioned in your list), Antonio Maceo, Maximo Gomez, Calixto Garcia, etc as criollos?

Guerrero was not mentioned because his movement was outright defeated at the moment.

There is a reason Iturbide doesnt really gets represented in modern Mexican history, because the truth of the Mexican independence is that of convenience so heroic figures who died get exalted instead.

Do you wonder why a movement that grew out of resistance against the French rulers of Spain and died up when the French were expelled got revived years later?

The REAL (as in the one that actually succeeded) Mexican independence movement arose when Fernando VII was forced to sign the Cadiz Constitution that made Spain a liberal constitucional monarchy. So the Mexican elites that didnt want to lose their privileges declared independence, there was little need to fight at that point since as i pointed out, peninsulares were a tiny minority.

Guerrero was also not what you would call part of peasantry, he was an arriero and relatively wealthy, educated and part of the Spanish militia.

He was part of the "Bourgeoisie" that were the economical and cultural power of New Spain but were denied political rights.

 

[Rod1]

Indeed.

There are definitely "third world" pockets across the "first world".

Yet you fail to extend said definition to Latin American countries as if our nations were nothing but an entropic mess where you cant tell A from B.

Take a good tourist tour to Guadalaja, Nuevo Leon and Mexico city visit the museums, the fine arts auditoriums, and the cathedrals, speak to the people and immerse yourself in the history and culture of these cities that served as seats of power of a Vicerroyalty and tell me that its now "western culture".

If you instead use as examples places that used to be capitanias and were never truly developed, of course you wont see much.

That being said, these places have still produced great works, Ruben Dario was from Nicaragua if i reckon.

 

[Alphafail]

Not in the definition used in here.

Having been in Brazil for almost 10 years, I can confirm they definitely do consider themselves part of the west.

 

[Black Helicopters]

it feels like the whole argument about Latin America being western is that they have European style churches lol

 

[vengeful]

Yes, they're in the western hemisphere.

 

[Ruprecht]

The left suffers from essentialism, as well, but its strategic essentialism ala Spivak.

Essentialism is the basis of collective action. Strategic essentialism means that there is a purpose in adopting the fiction of essentialism, because it creates collective consciousness (it enables subjects to grasp the political). Essentialism creates alienation. It prevents other opportunities, other definitions, other actions - that is 100%. The postcolonial intellectual debate centers on removing essentialism, but its hard to dethrone the dominant paradigm that has reigned for 2 thousand years.

I'd even say that historically identity politics has been employed more on the left.
The explosion of explicit right-wing identity politics is largely spurred by the conservative reaction to globalisation, and certainly isn't confined to "the west" no matter how anyone chooses to define it.
Personally I'm not remotely interested in identity politics, hence why I tend to use "The West" in the sense of geopolitical alliance (ie the first world in the cold war sense, or NATO and it's allies) and economic development.