Differences between catch wrestling and submission wrestling?

[BJJ_Rage]

Well, originally--as I guess you know--they were interchangeable terms. Luta livre was just the Portugese translation of catch-as-catch-can and I believe it was in the 50's that they generally dispensed with using the term catch-wrestling and just stuck to luta livre. It has been a while since I read up on the exact timeline of when they went from referring to themselves as catch or luta livre interchangeably and switched to just luta livre, but if memory serves, it was the 50's.

Apparently some people who were affiliated with Hatem, students, relatives, etc., prefer the term catch or Brazilian catch to this day.

Don't actually know about that bro... papers of the 30s 40s that narrated the fights between styles were already describing it as luta Livre.. Also, as far as I know, luta Livre is a mix between catch and judo, not just pure catch...

 

[rmongler]

'Luta Livre' is just portugese for 'free fighting'.

MMA contests were often also referred too as luta livre as well.

 

[Kforcer]

Don't actually know about that bro... papers of the 30s 40s that narrated the fights between styles were already describing it as luta Livre.. Also, as far as I know, luta Livre is a mix between catch and judo, not just pure catch...

It was always described as luta livre, as well as catch, until they stopped calling it catch and just calling it luta livre. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. It isn't that there was a time when they didn't call it luta livre, it is that there was a time when the terms were interchangeable. At a certain point that stoppe. Certainly, they stopped referring to it as catch at a certain point to not be associated with worked pro-wrestling. I thought it was the 50's, but like I said, I haven't read up on it in a little bit.

There are different strains and variations of luta livre, but Hatem's direct pupils seem to favor the term catch and apparently, to hear it from them, are more influenced by catch than judo. For whatever reason, some of them don't seem to like Leitao. Euclides Hatem's daughter is on Facebook, I might check and see what she has got to say on it.

I also don't think it is possible for luta livre and BJJ to grow up so close to one another and not heavily influence one another.

 

[agsmoke]

Is it worth learning for self defense? I found a gym with a certified instructor

http://www.checkmatcharlotte.com/
and he learned from this guy, William "Billy Wicks" (born April 4, 1932) was an American practitioner and teacher of Catch Wrestling and former Gulf Coast Champion. Billy taught Carny-style submission wrestling, commonly called hooking or catch at the W.N.C. Barbell Gym in Asheville.

 

[nefti]

If someone like Zain Rutherford or Mark Perry or any good folk style mat wrestler was put in a catch wrestling match and told there's no more potentially dangerous calls they would fuck up every catch wrestler out there

Pretty much

 

[Kforcer]

Pretty much

You know this based off of what? You've never heard of a catch guy tapping a high level wrestler out with a rolling leglock for example? Or a flying scissor or any number of things which would not involve going onto your back? Heck, being in guard, doesn't necessarily mean a pin anyways. On or possibily exposing your back, sure, but being in guard doesn't condemn you to getting pinned.

 

[nefti]

Perhaps back in the day when submissions were not as easy to learn. I honestly think that "catch" guys will do as much as they can to keep collegiate wrestlers from dominating catch. It's their bread line.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If someone like Zain Rutherford or Mark Perry or any good folk style mat wrestler was put in a catch wrestling match and told there's no more potentially dangerous calls they would fuck up every catch wrestler out there

well, I dont think its that easy...

there was a grappling tournament called the contenders back in 1997, it feature hendo vs frank, humme vs another olympic wrestler I think... both frank and humme subed their opponents quite easily.

 

[jack36767]

well, I dont think its that easy...

there was a grappling tournament called the contenders back in 1997, it feature hendo vs frank, humme vs another olympic wrestler I think... both frank and humme subed their opponents quite easily.

I'm talking about with pins

 

[nefti]

well, I dont think its that easy...

there was a grappling tournament called the contenders back in 1997, it feature hendo vs frank, humme vs another olympic wrestler I think... both frank and humme subed their opponents quite easily.

Different times, now you can learn high lvl sub and defense everywhere.

 

[Kforcer]

Perhaps back in the day when submissions were not as easy to learn. I honestly think that "catch" guys will do as much as they can to keep collegiate wrestlers from dominating catch. It's their bread line.

Catch wrestlers are forever trying to bring amateur wrestlers into the fold. You are completely incorrect. And who is making money competing in grappling competitions featuring pins and submissions?

 

[Kforcer]

well, I dont think its that easy...

there was a grappling tournament called the contenders back in 1997, it feature hendo vs frank, humme vs another olympic wrestler I think... both frank and humme subed their opponents quite easily.

Hume's opponent was the legendary Kenny Monday.

 

[nefti]

Catch wrestlers are forever trying to bring amateur wrestlers into the fold. You are completely incorrect. And who is making money competing in grappling competitions featuring pins and submissions?

Lol medals? It's about associations/federations/certifications and charging people. You know how certain people pay Rorion Gracie 1996 seminar prices in 2017. That's what it's about, who gets to control "catch".

 

[Kforcer]

Lol medals? It's about associations/federations/certifications and charging people. You know how certain people pay Rorion Gracie 1996 seminar prices in 2017. That's what it's about, who gets to control "catch".

Of those who actually do make money off of catch-wrestling, then, of that small, small number, who are these that shun amateur wrestling? Scientific Wrestling is using Wade Schalles as one of its instructors and they are the ones who are in the whole certification business. If anything, these days, people who didn't have an amateur background are shunned for it. I lot of people seem to have Suzuki and Saku over Funaki for no real reason other than that, for example.

In fact, a lot of people into catch seem to--IMO--make too much of an amateur background, almost fetishizing it.

 

[nefti]

So do you agree that the money is in federations/associations/seminars/certifications?​

 

[nefti]

btw are you actually training these days?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm talking about with pins

I don't think in either match pins would've affected the result of those matches, both got leg locked quite fast iirc. Not even a Chance to edtablish position.

 

[Kforcer]

btw are you actually training these days?

Nefti, do you have me confused with KJ Gould? Asking if I am "actually" training is kind of a strange question.

 

[Kforcer]

I don't think in either match pins would've affected the result of those matches, both got leg locked quite fast iirc. Not even a Chance to edtablish position.

Yup. I personally haven't ever done catch-rules as a tournament, but I haven't either felt as if the presence of pins would changed much of anything in most cases. And in the instances where I did wind up on my back for a spell, I would have reacted differently had pins been a factor.

 

[Kforcer]

If someone like Zain Rutherford or Mark Perry or any good folk style mat wrestler was put in a catch wrestling match and told there's no more potentially dangerous calls they would fuck up every catch wrestler out there

Where do you get this idea from?