Differences between catch wrestling and submission wrestling?

[hitman97]

What are the differences between catch wrestling and submission wrestling

 

[Dirty Holt]

Catch wrestling has pins that terminate the match as well as submissions; Submission wrestling does not have pins.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Submission wrestling is a catch-all term that gets applied to a number of different rule sets where you can win the match by submission. Catch wrestling is either: 1) something similar to folkstyle wrestling with submissions added in and possibly no points (depending on rules); or 2) a label people apply to their style of grappling when they want to differentiate themselves from the more popular grappling arts or they're not ranked in those arts, regardless of whether they have actually been trained in catch wrestling.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Submission wrestling is a catch-all term that gets applied to a number of different rule sets where you can win the match by submission. Catch wrestling is either: 1) something similar to folkstyle wrestling with submissions added in and possibly no points (depending on rules); or 2) a label people apply to their style of grappling when they want to differentiate themselves from the more popular grappling arts or they're not ranked in those arts, regardless of whether they have actually been trained in catch wrestling.

YESSIR

 

[nefti]

Catch wrestling has pins that terminate the match as well as submissions; Submission wrestling does not have pins.

How good do you think curran Jacobs is? I know he is a nast collegiate wrestler.

 

[Kforcer]

Submission wrestling is a catch-all term that gets applied to a number of different rule sets where you can win the match by submission. Catch wrestling is either: 1) something similar to folkstyle wrestling with submissions added in and possibly no points (depending on rules); or 2) a label people apply to their style of grappling when they want to differentiate themselves from the more popular grappling arts or they're not ranked in those arts, regardless of whether they have actually been trained in catch wrestling.

I would sort of say the opposite.

Recently, people have started to use the term catch-wrestling to imply something very, very specific when back in the day, it often really just meant wrestling that featured ground-work. And so often, catch-wrestlers of the past would refer to what they did as "grappling" or "submission-wrestling". Even the term "hooking" essentially means "submission-wrestling." It is just implying that the submissions at play are, well, very effective ones.

This notion that a lack of pins means it isn't catch is very, very recent. And it would mean that all the Japanese guys--from Funaki to Toida to Saku to Tokoro and on--aren't and never were catch-wrestlers, even though its questionable whether a majority of the people who push this rigid definition of catch would even know about catch if not for the same people that they claim are not authentic representatives of it.

My answer is really that, there was no distinction until recently, when no-gi grappling became much bigger and people then sought to distinguish between the no-gi grapplers more heavily influenced by the catch-wrestling tradition and those influenced by other styles.

Distinguishing between arts that are so similar can be difficult, because if you truly watch enough of various grappling arts, it is hard to find a technique truly unique to a given style, unless the technique is one specifically prohibited by the rules associated with a given style.

 

[Kforcer]

Catch wrestling has pins that terminate the match as well as submissions; Submission wrestling does not have pins.

It depends. Brazilian catch-wrestling recently held tournaments that reintroduced the pin, but they got rid of pins around the 50's so as not to be associated with worked professional wrestling. Japanese catch-wrestling generally hasn't featured pins, except in Combat Wrestling, where they don't end the match but do score points. But in Pancrase catch-wrestling, there are have never been pins as a means of winning the match.

You could argue that it isn't catch-wrestling, but given that these guys were direct proteges of Karl Gotch and the like and were about the only ones--along with the luta livre guys--doing unscripted catch wrestling competitions, I think that's a hard case to make.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It depends. Brazilian catch-wrestling recently held tournaments that reintroduced the pin, but they got rid of pins around the 50's so as not to be associated with worked professional wrestling. Japanese catch-wrestling generally hasn't featured pins, except in Combat Wrestling, where they don't end the match but do score points. But in Pancrase catch-wrestling, there are have never been pins as a means of winning the match.

You could argue that it isn't catch-wrestling, but given that these guys were direct proteges of Karl Gotch and the like and were about the only ones--along with the luta livre guys--doing unscripted catch wrestling competitions, I think that's a hard case to make.

back in the 50s wouldnt any catch in brazil be called Lult Livre already?

 

[Kforcer]

back in the 50s wouldnt any catch in brazil be called Lult Livre already?

Well, originally--as I guess you know--they were interchangeable terms. Luta livre was just the Portugese translation of catch-as-catch-can and I believe it was in the 50's that they generally dispensed with using the term catch-wrestling and just stuck to luta livre. It has been a while since I read up on the exact timeline of when they went from referring to themselves as catch or luta livre interchangeably and switched to just luta livre, but if memory serves, it was the 50's.

Apparently some people who were affiliated with Hatem, students, relatives, etc., prefer the term catch or Brazilian catch to this day.

 

[nefti]

Let's be honest if catch was with a pin these guys who didn't wrestle in his/college would get wrecked. Look at curran vs newaza. Having no pin matches are the only way that these guys can survive.

 

[Kforcer]

Let's be honest if catch was with a pin these guys who didn't wrestle in his/college would get wrecked. Look at curran vs newaza. Having no pin matches are the only way that these guys can survive.

Apparently, at the Euclides Hatem Cup, guys from BJJ backgrounds did great. Or so the report says. I watched the highlights but I don't know who is who so I can't confirm that. Anyway, I don't really think you can draw a whole lot from Curran and Travis's match that aren't specific to the two participants.

Back when Combat Wrestling was big in Japan, it regularly featured high-level wrestlers. And it wasn't like guys who were more submission-oriented were constantly giving away back points. Taking down and pinning a guy who is dangerous with submission entries off the feet is not the easiest thing in the world to do.

 

[nefti]

The difference is that japan does Olympic freestyle, is high school/college does folk. Let's be honest div 1 wrestler with basic submission defense will 99% of the time take down and pin a "catch wrestler". A guy like newaza won't ever be able to take down a D1 wrestler.

 

[Kforcer]

The difference is that japan does Olympic freestyle, is high school/college does folk. Let's be honest div 1 wrestler with basic submission defense will 99% of the time take down and pin a "catch wrestler". A guy like newaza won't ever be able to take down a D1 wrestler.

Uhm, I don't know too much about Travis Newaza. So it is hard for me to say what he is or is not capable of.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

The talent pool of catch wrestling is so small now, of course guys with tonnes of experience in other sports can go in and do well.

It's not that different to when I've seen good boxers go and knock novices out in local Muay Thai matches.

 

[nefti]

Uhm, I don't know too much about Travis Newaza. So it is hard for me to say what he is or is not capable of.

Travis newaza is supposed to be josh Barnetts best student.

 

[nefti]

Remember the most successful "catch wrestler" is a man who actually wrestled competitively, sakuraba was a high school wrestler

 

[Kforcer]

Travis newaza is supposed to be josh Barnetts best student.

No, actually he is not. Show me where Barnett or Travis ever even implied that.

And Sakuraba wrestled in college as well as high school. I'm actually stlil not sure what you're point is, nefti.

 

[nefti]

No, actually he is not. Show me where Barnett or Travis ever even implied that.

And Sakuraba wrestled in college as well as high school. I'm actually stlil not sure what you're point is, nefti.

You're right. Curran said that is what Barnett told him.

 

[Kforcer]

You're right. Curran said that is what Barnett told him.

Yeah, I think he was just trying to hype up the match between them.

 

[jack36767]

The difference is that japan does Olympic freestyle, is high school/college does folk. Let's be honest div 1 wrestler with basic submission defense will 99% of the time take down and pin a "catch wrestler". A guy like newaza won't ever be able to take down a D1 wrestler.

If someone like Zain Rutherford or Mark Perry or any good folk style mat wrestler was put in a catch wrestling match and told there's no more potentially dangerous calls they would fuck up every catch wrestler out there