Difference between Sambo and Systema?

[Suvorov]

sigh, someone needs to go to russia and get phantom punched to put an end to this mess.

for now, skepticism ftw.

Lol. I'm in Russia, how do you propose I do that (plus the guy in the video did, and yet we are still reluctant to believe it)? Skepticism, sure. I just feel the video makes one think.

 

[TaebownzBJJ]

Lol. I'm in Russia, how do you propose I do that (plus the guy in the video did, and yet we are still reluctant to believe it)? Skepticism, sure. I just feel the video makes one think.

It makes me think of George Dillman...

 

[Kimuralex]

IMO...Systema has some very good movement principles and foundations, but it has been marketed to death and promoted with dubious/contradictory histories. I have read so many contradictory accounts of systema's history. One article I read in JAMA claims it's long ancient history as "Russian Martial Art" yet the recent ad in grappling magazine claims Ryabko is the founder of the system. You can't have both. In my limited experience with systema, it so distanced from practical fighting/training against resistance that is has become more of a Russian fitness or aikido program than a practical combat system.

Unfortunately, in North America, Vasiliev is becoming very rich through mass marketing the crap out of systema. Distance learning, easily attained (and expensive) instructor certs, combat training camps for weekend warrior types, etc. I really think that any system that must depend so much on pushing it's "Special Forces" connection, rather than it's practicality, must be suspect. People should train in it because it works, not because you can run around the Canadian woods with fake AK-47s dressed in camoflage. Join the army if you want to do that. He is selling a "Russian Fantasy" and people are eating it up. Sad part is that Systema actually has some very valid principles.

I have met and traind with Vasiliev (and some of his top/oldest students) and he is the real deal (I even have footage of him working out with my sambo coach). Some of Vasiliev's senior students that I have met actually have voiced sadness over what is happening to systema through mass marketing. Vasiliev is killing the art while making himself rich. I do think systema has practicality when it's movement philosophy is used as a supplement to other training but, be honest about what it is.

What is the difference between Systema and Sambo? Big difference. Systema is an offshoot of combat sambo. My own coach, life long military and nearly 70 years old now used to say that systema was a less practical offshoot of combat sambo. He never said it was lacking value, just that it was not what it is marketed to be. One of my student's grandfather was a Russian Special Focres during WWII (Black Death as they called themselves - the term spetsnaz only came about in the 1970's). Many of those guys were navy folks who were re-trained for special ground ops after their fleets were decimated by the Nazis. In any event, when my student asked him about systema and the Russian Special Forces, he laughed and said he never heard of it - it was always sambo.

I also ask, why is Putin not putting his name behind it? He is very honest about his combat sambo background from his career in the KGB. He is the first one to support sambo and promote his connection to it. He did not put a "systema" section in his judo book, he put a combat sambo section. He never mentions or promotes systema.

Honestly, sambo's history is full of questions and contradictions too - thanks to the secret soviets. But, it is still mentioned for 70 years in some fashion or another.

My grandparents bought me a judo book when I just got started, and it was in russian, I was suprised to see that Putin was "master of the sport" i guess the black belt equivalent to english or japanese terms..I noticed you were talking about this, has putin ever competed and was he any good? the book isnt the best but its pretty good for starters

 

[VampireMonk]

phantom punches, are not some super technique that can KO a MMA fighter with ease.

there is no such magical technique.

 

[Via KO]

Sambo is a sport, and Systema is an old Russian combatives program that lacks practical training and techniques.

 

[batman69]

Well, since a picture is worth a thousand words, I got some good video to show you. This is a Russian movie about Spetsnaz, their operations and more importantly their training. The movie is very interesting but long and in Russian, take a look at the whole thing if you like, but for our discussion there are a couple of very telling parts that you should take a look at.

The link is http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5753486715994250717&q=spetsnaz

at 13:00 minute mark there is a video of actual hand to hand combat training (note the intensity and the color of their gi)

at 29:50 there is an instruction in hand to hand combat that was put for Spetsnaz soldiers and for American Marines that were visiting, the narrator says that the instructor did not want to show everything, and very reluctantly showed the last part, but did not explain. This is the phantom punch and "energy combat" part of training shown by actual Spetsnaz instructor to future soldiers, not a Macdojo bs in the West. Note the reaction of an American Marine who did not believe the demonstration, and afterwards he had it done on him. So who knows, maybe there is something to it. We definatly might have something to talk about after this clip. Enjoy.

all i saw was the typical dance like bullshit you can watch on any aikido demo mpeg. the "marine" who acts like he gets hit by a phatom punch to the neck is also laughing and acting like he's not being too serious. even worse is the guy who walks away from the instructor and acts like he is pulled down by some phantom grab. i keep thinking these discusions have all been put to bed at this point. yet here is more "evidence" that you can punch people from across the room and make them fall down by spinning around them while they help you knock them over by toppling over.

 

[Suvorov]

all i saw was the typical dance like bullshit you can watch on any aikido demo mpeg. the "marine" who acts like he gets hit by a phatom punch to the neck is also laughing and acting like he's not being too serious. even worse is the guy who walks away from the instructor and acts like he is pulled down by some phantom grab. i keep thinking these discusions have all been put to bed at this point. yet here is more "evidence" that you can punch people from across the room and make them fall down by spinning around them while they help you knock them over by toppling over.

It did not look like the Marine was joking around and being silly, more that he was amazed and extremely surprised, and tried to mask that reaction by smiling. Its quite natural, what did you expect him to do? Roll on the ground, crying and whimpering "bad Russian, bad Spetsnaz man".

Look, for the tenth time I repeat: I saw all the BS videos you are talking about (including Systema) and like all the rest of normal people laughed and thought it was complete lunacy. But this one is different. This is Russian Spetsnaz. It was the first demonstration of this kind that I have ever seen of them doing this stuff. They have no schools, they are not selling anything, they are not trying to impress anybody (it is nearly impossible to get into, due to high enrollment and extremely high demands). You have seen the way they train in the first part that I marked out. They have been fighting non stop for the past 60 years or so. This is why I ASSUME that when THEY show it, it must have been tested and retested in very realistic conditions, and been proven somewhat effective.

Perhaps not; but this is what I'm trying to pinpoint, not the fact that I found another video of "human stun gun" in an American suburban neighborhood who will happily divulge his secrets for sixty bucks a month. I am not trying to sell anybody either. If you have an opinion that any of this stuff is bullshit to begin with, no matter who is showing it, hey that's fine. It made me change my mind from "all this stuff in crap", to "maybe there is something to it", that's all.

 

[sambosteve]

Nice vid Suvorov. Thanks for posting that. The hard training scene is like the vid I have. I have rhours of these guys just kicking the crap out of each other. I think you vid highlights the fact that, whatever people think about the soft style training - like systema, the RSF don' t train only in that. So, it is not simply systema that makes one good but, a collective of training. I know my coach did some funky sh*t where he would seem to redirect me like that - pretty scary.

Regarding the striped "naval" shirt, the SF wear that because of their history. The modern RSF were formed after the Nazi's decimated their navy in WWII. The naval soldiers continued to wear their uniforms as their new clandestine land warfare roles evolved - it was a matter of pride. In any event, that is why the RSF wear a navy shirt now.

There is a good book on Russian Naval Spetsnaz during WWII (they were not called spetsnaz then - that is a post 1970's term). It is out of print, but the Naval Institute Press published an English translation about 10 years ago. The original was written in the 60's. Here is the link if you want to get the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1557508321/102-7538290-0051320?v=glance&n=283155

 

[Fougaisie]

even worse is the guy who walks away from the instructor and acts like he is pulled down by some phantom grab. i keep thinking these discusions have all been put to bed at this point. yet here is more "evidence" that you can punch people from across the room and make them fall down by spinning around them while they help you knock them over by toppling over.

Umm, watch that phantom grab again and specifically look at the guys collar, wtf is up with that!!

 

[farmboy]

One is as useful as a racoon's ass, the other isn't and is used by armed forces and MMA champions.

I guess it depends on how you plan on using the racoon's ass.

 

[Charlitos1988]

One of the main takedown movements used in the krav-like systema schools is the "puta kapala." I've seen it done many times in sambo tournaments, and also used by Scott Sonnon who does Russian Martial Arts (RMAX / ROSS) and used to be affiliated with the Krav-Systema group. Scott Sonnon also does lots of conditioning and kettlebell work and has a bunch of videos on them.

pleaseeee how is a puta kapala and do you a have a video??? pleaseeeeee

 

[Vitamin C]

pleaseeee how is a puta kapala and do you a have a video??? pleaseeeeee

Sure is necro in here today.