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No problem. I lurk more than post here but, I try to chime in if I feel I can contribute anything of value
No problem. I lurk more than post here but, I try to chime in if I feel I can contribute anything of value
This Ryabko clown looks like the stereotypical TMA black belt of the George Dillman variety: a guy who supposedly has endured the discipline and rigors of extensive martial arts training and as a result is...clumsy, fat, and slow. So much so that he can't even convincingly appear to be fending off assistants who are going laughably out of their way to be felled by the techniques he's using. Well, that and his amazing ability to knock people down without touching them.
Lester McGrath
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Nihilistic said:
It looks so absurd it is not even funny. Aikido and Tai chi look a whole lot more effective and legitimate than this and they are not promoted as "deadly martial arts".
Hopefully some of this information will be useful for people interested in the differences between SAMBO and Systema. One note I would like to add is that most information on Systema comes from Systema practioners and not any governing body like many other martial arts and sports.
SAMBO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_%28martial_art%29
Versions of Sambo
Although it was originally a single system, there are now three generally recognized versions of Sambo:
Sport Sambo (Borba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or Judo. The competition is similar to Judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform. For example, in contrast with Judo, Sambo allows all types of leg locks, while not allowing chokeholds.
Self-defense Sambo, which is similar to Aikijutsu, jujitsu or Aikido, and is based on self-defense application, such as defending against attacks by both armed and unarmed attackers.
Combat Sambo (Russian: Boyevoye Sambo). Utilized and developed for the military, this is arguably the root of Sambo as it is now known, and includes practice with weapons and disarming techniques. Competition in combat sambo resembles modern mixed martial arts, and includes extensive forms of striking and grappling.
Sambo practitioners
Fedor Emelianenko is a World Combat Sambo Champion and Russian Combat Sambo Champion. He is also a mixed martial arts fighter and is the current heavyweight champion in PRIDE Fighting Championships in Japan. He is arguably the best heavyweight MMA fighter in the world.
Aleksander Emelianenko, Fedor's brother, is a two-time Russian national Sambo champion, and two time world Sambo champion in the absolute divisions.
Oleg Taktarov UFC 6 Champion and UFC '95 Ultimate Ultimate Tournament finalist
Andrei Arlovski was the UFC heavyweight champion. He was also the Junior World Sambo Champion.
Scott Sonnon is a 1993 World University Games silver medalist, 1994 Pan-American Games gold medalist and 1995 US Grand National SOMBO Championships gold medalist. He was also a member of the 1993-95 and 1999 USA National Sambo team coaching staff [1]. Today he is a performance enhancement coach for RMAX International [2].
SAMBO links (North America)
http://www.ussambo.com/
http://americansambo.com/
SYSTEMA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema
A brief history of Systema
There is no historical "real name" for these arts. In many cases, it's common to simply see "Russian martial arts" used, although that can lead to some confusion. In a sense, the name "Systema" (the system) can be thought of as a generic title comparible to "Kung Fu" ("one who is highly skilled" or "time" and "effort").
At least in Ryabko's Systema, "The System" is a reference to the various systems of the body (Muscle, Nervous system, respiratory system, etc) as well as elements of Psychology and the Spirit.
Because there have been and still are a number of different fighting styles common throughout the Russian military and special forces, several other names and nicknames are commonly mistaken for Systema. For example, some troops and special forces personnel train in "boevoe sambo" (combat sambo), which is a separate art. Also, troops would refer to whatever was taught as "rukopashka" (Russian slang for "hand to hand"), or "machalka" or "boinia" (Russian slang for "fighting" and "beating"). The name "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" was coined by the Soviet government to misdirect Systema's relation to Sambo, and there is little relation between the two styles.
The first Soviet practitioners of Systema were Joseph Stalin's personal bodyguards[according to Systema practioners]. After Stalin's death, Systema became the style of fighting employed by some Special Military Operations Units for high risk missions in Spetsnaz, GRU and other government facilities. There were and are a number of different combat arts trained throughout Russian special forces units, and Systema is only one of them.
It is due to the Soviet Union's strict ban on non-sanctioned traditions, and the sensitivity of special forces training, that it was not until the fall of Communism that Systema became known. Systema's pre-Soviet Russian heritage is only recently being rediscovered.
Although there is some controversy over historical proof, Systema's Russian martial arts heritage is believed to date back to the 10th century. There are family and traditional styles which have existed in Russia, some of which are becoming more visible. It's possible that Systema's roots go deep into family styles which were never named or taught openly and kept as closely guarded secrets during the Soviet reign. Many believe that the early practitioners of Systema are the Bogatyr (Russian heros/knights).
Contemporary Systema
Systema is counted alongside a number of pre-soviet traditions which are being actively cultivated by the Russian government. In 2004, the Dinamo Sports Center played host to a demonstration and celebration of martial traditions.
It is still a relative unknown, but Systema or relatives to it are being taught by several practitioners inside and outside of Russia. Of particular interest is that different people from different backgrounds were taught subtle variations of Systema.
Furthermore, since practitioners train in their own preferred manner and with their individual understanding, their style expressed in their art is unique to them. This is most readily seen with senior students and other high-level artists.
Kadochnikov's Systema
Ryabko's Systema
Systema links (North America) Some pages have video samples
http://www.russianmartialart.com/
http://midwestshootingacademy.com/systema/index.htm
http://www.systemamartialart.com/
SAMBO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_%28martial_art%29
Versions of Sambo
Although it was originally a single system, there are now three generally recognized versions of Sambo:
Sport Sambo (Borba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or Judo. The competition is similar to Judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform. For example, in contrast with Judo, Sambo allows all types of leg locks, while not allowing chokeholds.
Self-defense Sambo, which is similar to Aikijutsu, jujitsu or Aikido, and is based on self-defense application, such as defending against attacks by both armed and unarmed attackers.
Combat Sambo (Russian: Boyevoye Sambo). Utilized and developed for the military, this is arguably the root of Sambo as it is now known, and includes practice with weapons and disarming techniques. Competition in combat sambo resembles modern mixed martial arts, and includes extensive forms of striking and grappling.
Sambo practitioners
Fedor Emelianenko is a World Combat Sambo Champion and Russian Combat Sambo Champion. He is also a mixed martial arts fighter and is the current heavyweight champion in PRIDE Fighting Championships in Japan. He is arguably the best heavyweight MMA fighter in the world.
Aleksander Emelianenko, Fedor's brother, is a two-time Russian national Sambo champion, and two time world Sambo champion in the absolute divisions.
Oleg Taktarov UFC 6 Champion and UFC '95 Ultimate Ultimate Tournament finalist
Andrei Arlovski was the UFC heavyweight champion. He was also the Junior World Sambo Champion.
Scott Sonnon is a 1993 World University Games silver medalist, 1994 Pan-American Games gold medalist and 1995 US Grand National SOMBO Championships gold medalist. He was also a member of the 1993-95 and 1999 USA National Sambo team coaching staff [1]. Today he is a performance enhancement coach for RMAX International [2].
SAMBO links (North America)
http://www.ussambo.com/
http://americansambo.com/
SYSTEMA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema
A brief history of Systema
There is no historical "real name" for these arts. In many cases, it's common to simply see "Russian martial arts" used, although that can lead to some confusion. In a sense, the name "Systema" (the system) can be thought of as a generic title comparible to "Kung Fu" ("one who is highly skilled" or "time" and "effort").
At least in Ryabko's Systema, "The System" is a reference to the various systems of the body (Muscle, Nervous system, respiratory system, etc) as well as elements of Psychology and the Spirit.
Because there have been and still are a number of different fighting styles common throughout the Russian military and special forces, several other names and nicknames are commonly mistaken for Systema. For example, some troops and special forces personnel train in "boevoe sambo" (combat sambo), which is a separate art. Also, troops would refer to whatever was taught as "rukopashka" (Russian slang for "hand to hand"), or "machalka" or "boinia" (Russian slang for "fighting" and "beating"). The name "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" was coined by the Soviet government to misdirect Systema's relation to Sambo, and there is little relation between the two styles.
The first Soviet practitioners of Systema were Joseph Stalin's personal bodyguards[according to Systema practioners]. After Stalin's death, Systema became the style of fighting employed by some Special Military Operations Units for high risk missions in Spetsnaz, GRU and other government facilities. There were and are a number of different combat arts trained throughout Russian special forces units, and Systema is only one of them.
It is due to the Soviet Union's strict ban on non-sanctioned traditions, and the sensitivity of special forces training, that it was not until the fall of Communism that Systema became known. Systema's pre-Soviet Russian heritage is only recently being rediscovered.
Although there is some controversy over historical proof, Systema's Russian martial arts heritage is believed to date back to the 10th century. There are family and traditional styles which have existed in Russia, some of which are becoming more visible. It's possible that Systema's roots go deep into family styles which were never named or taught openly and kept as closely guarded secrets during the Soviet reign. Many believe that the early practitioners of Systema are the Bogatyr (Russian heros/knights).
Contemporary Systema
Systema is counted alongside a number of pre-soviet traditions which are being actively cultivated by the Russian government. In 2004, the Dinamo Sports Center played host to a demonstration and celebration of martial traditions.
It is still a relative unknown, but Systema or relatives to it are being taught by several practitioners inside and outside of Russia. Of particular interest is that different people from different backgrounds were taught subtle variations of Systema.
Furthermore, since practitioners train in their own preferred manner and with their individual understanding, their style expressed in their art is unique to them. This is most readily seen with senior students and other high-level artists.
Kadochnikov's Systema
Ryabko's Systema
Systema links (North America) Some pages have video samples
http://www.russianmartialart.com/
http://midwestshootingacademy.com/systema/index.htm
http://www.systemamartialart.com/
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I am not sure I buy that Systema definition...
One thing is true...that is the fact that many histories were destroyed at whim under the soviets. So, with systema, people are left to guess or believe what is told them. That definition sounds like typical martial art mystery history kind of stuff.
One thing is true...that is the fact that many histories were destroyed at whim under the soviets. So, with systema, people are left to guess or believe what is told them. That definition sounds like typical martial art mystery history kind of stuff.
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VampireMonk said:
I said it before and I will say it again,
it's like comparing BJJ with Yoga, people with have their opinions
too violent, too passive, whatever,
but if you do both it can benefit you greatly.
the only limitations in this case are the ones you set yourself.
you imprison yourself, in other words you have a closed mind if you
think one sucks or is inferior.
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Suvorov said:
what it added was subtle things needed to progress in MMA.
learning how to master my body mechanics.
to go into concepts instead of just having a technical mindset.
everything from how to train, how to learn, and how to set goals,
how to critique yourself to improve.
my movements became more efficient, smooth, better control, I could roll with a kid or girl
and not hurt them, I don't just mirror people's intensity, I can set the pace,
better body positions to avoid injury.
once you get good at learning, then things become so much easier.
Nihilistic said:
Looks like the same crap my last JJ instructor tried to pass as effective. Remember that is a knife not a sword nor hammer. Talk to someone from prison about knife fights. I have, and they call people that teach this stuff... SNAKE OIL SALESMEN.
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sambosteve said:
Does your instructor have much exposure to systema, or have you seen a Samboist vs a systema person in a sparring?
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My coach was not a systema guy. The level of sparring with systema will vary greatly depending on the teacher, location, etc. But, no I have never seen a formal sambo vs systema sparring match.
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Suvorov said:
exactly, it's more the subtle stuff, attributes, concepts, you get it, since technique is everywhere man!
B
blanko
Guest
unless you are in the russian special forces or MOSSAD, stay away from those styles because #1 you don't have the abilities of those men #2 you don't have the time and enegery to train like those men.
X
xinster
Guest
VampireMonk said:
none of that stuff is exclusive to systema. In fact, i don't believe any of it is exclusive at all.
I found this vid on systema: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2507273940931607496&q=Systema
The guy claimed to have tested MMA styles against sytema. It's total BS. From what I saw it was more like systema nerd vs mma wannabe nerd, and the systema nerd won.
I watched a few other vids on systema, which thankfully looked more realistic. Most of the time, though, you see a guy going half speed while the other guy dodged and/or parried his attack and took him unresistingly to the ground. It looked almost effective, but the systema demonstrator was always moving a lot faster than his half speed attacker. You'd have to be able to maintain that vast speed advantage at full speed in order for a lot of the methods to be useful in real life. But if you're that much faster than your opponent you can pretty much do anything and it'll be effective.
It looks like it basically has the same problems that any style that doesn't train with aliveness might develop. It reminds me a lot of kung fu style I encountered, actually. The style used a lot of trapping techniques, which can be effective, but they didn't train very much "alive". I participated in a class and at the end the did light noncontact (except for the trapping) sparring. I shrugged my shoulders in tight, threw jabs and crosses, and slipped their punches and they were lost. It's not that their trapping techniques weren't useable, it's that they never trained in a way to figure out which techniqes were useable and when. They only knew how to play their game.
The guy claimed to have tested MMA styles against sytema. It's total BS. From what I saw it was more like systema nerd vs mma wannabe nerd, and the systema nerd won.
I watched a few other vids on systema, which thankfully looked more realistic. Most of the time, though, you see a guy going half speed while the other guy dodged and/or parried his attack and took him unresistingly to the ground. It looked almost effective, but the systema demonstrator was always moving a lot faster than his half speed attacker. You'd have to be able to maintain that vast speed advantage at full speed in order for a lot of the methods to be useful in real life. But if you're that much faster than your opponent you can pretty much do anything and it'll be effective.
It looks like it basically has the same problems that any style that doesn't train with aliveness might develop. It reminds me a lot of kung fu style I encountered, actually. The style used a lot of trapping techniques, which can be effective, but they didn't train very much "alive". I participated in a class and at the end the did light noncontact (except for the trapping) sparring. I shrugged my shoulders in tight, threw jabs and crosses, and slipped their punches and they were lost. It's not that their trapping techniques weren't useable, it's that they never trained in a way to figure out which techniqes were useable and when. They only knew how to play their game.
TaebownzBJJ
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Gregster said:
Our own SEALs used SCARS for a while...
B
blanko
Guest
yea but our seals were not living behind enemy lines all the time like those MOSSAD/IDF dudes. The seals are not a good example, as a matter of fact nor is delta .
