Difference between Sambo and Systema?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Dooky, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. Dooky Guest

    Dooky
    I have been wondering this for a long time,What the difference between Systema and Sambo,they look just about the same and theyre both used in the Russian Military. Is Sambo a lighter version on Systema? Is Systema a Military form of Sambo?? Please explain.
     
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  2. HIEI Yellow Belt

    HIEI
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    The Difference Is I Have No Clue What The Hell Systema Is
     
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  3. Firecop71 White Belt

    Firecop71
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    I am not sure where you have seen something that shows Sambo and Systema looking alike. Not that you havent but they are night and day apart in origin.
    Sambo is based off JiuJitsu/Judo with a healthy addition of native Russian wrestling styles. It includes leglocks in its sporting application though as compared to Judo which does not. It also use a different kind of Gi-top than does Judo and competitiors also where shorts and wrestling shoes. There is both a military version of Sambo and the sporting application of the art.
    Systema is for all intents and purposes Aikido. Its effectiveness as a fighting system has been debated viciously on several internet forums for years. It's proponents swear by its effectiveness while its detractors swear by its complete lack of realism.
    I have my own opinions on Systema but in all fairness, I havent trained in it. so my opinion dont count for much.
    Hope this helps.
     
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  4. czar2 Purple Belt

    czar2
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    Sambo >>>>>>>>>> systema. How can you even compare! I trained sambo and watched some systema videos and can honestly say that systema is crap.
     
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  5. LiverpoolJim Brown Belt

    LiverpoolJim
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    1 works 1 dont. Ill leave the guess work up to you :)
     
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  6. Foolkiller You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!

    Foolkiller
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    Part of the only one holistic system of systems
    One is as useful as a racoon's ass, the other isn't and is used by armed forces and MMA champions.
     
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  7. Firecop71 White Belt

    Firecop71
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    I feel the same way but didnt want to start any flame wars. This has been argued a bazillion times on other forums and it usually gets out of hand, thats why I reseved my opinion. Not cause I think Systema>sambo
     
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  8. ~Power~ Blue Belt

    ~Power~
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    Agreed; Sambo over Systema.
     
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  9. zenshin Green Belt

    zenshin
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    Systema has a real bad reputation on lot of forums lol!!! I never did it, but did see videos, doesn't look realistic, then again I never trained it so who knows it is probably the best thing out there. If you wanna try it do it, dont let peoles opinions discourage you!!!
     
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  10. scotty1444 Orange Belt

    scotty1444
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    i seen a program about it called go warriror and it looked crapped.
     
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  11. Gregster Black Belt

    Gregster
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    I assume you're referring to Systema as being useful as a racoons' ass...as it happens, Systema was designed specifically for Soviet Spetsnaz special forces troops.

    I can't imagine Systema would be great for MMA or well-suited to teaching people in the suburbs how to defend themselves since it is, to my knowledge, intended to be used in life-or-death situations where the object it to win by killing or maiming your opponent. I'd liken it to Krav Maga, which was also designed strictly for utilitarian military fighting, geared to similar types of fighting situations, and depending on who you ask is either very spartan, effective and no-nonsense fighting or complete bullshit.

    I'm hard-pressed to understand why any countrys' special operators-- the guys most likely to see combat and moreover much more likely to have to disable or kill people in close-quarters situations-- would devote time to training in a system of fighting that is complete useless bullshit.
     
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  12. VampireMonk Black Belt

    VampireMonk
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    Sambo is a style like BJJ.

    Systema is like Ginastica Natural

    wonder where many of the Russian fighters have flexible shoulders that allow them
    to throw their weird way of punching? Enter Systema.

    Like yoga for Sambo.
     
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  13. Soulfly Guest

    Soulfly
    Agreed. There are also two types of systema out there. One of them being Vladimir's in the main school. The other being a split group that trains more realistically. It has a lot of krav maga like movements and includes silat-like knife work. Vlad's school trains a lot of aikido like drills.

    A lot of the inside principles of boxing striking (rotation, power transfer, relaxation and physics) are used - but the delivery is different. Some principles are emphasised more than others, too (relaxation for example.)

    One of the main takedown movements used in the krav-like systema schools is the "puta kapala." I've seen it done many times in sambo tournaments, and also used by Scott Sonnon who does Russian Martial Arts (RMAX / ROSS) and used to be affiliated with the Krav-Systema group. Scott Sonnon also does lots of conditioning and kettlebell work and has a bunch of videos on them.

    It also has a more TMA-esque feel to it depending on how close you affiliate yourself with Vladimir's association in Canada. (He makes the videos that people move without touch or contact, etc.)
     
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  14. monkey roll Green Belt

    monkey roll
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  15. Nihilistic Black Belt

    Nihilistic
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  16. VampireMonk Black Belt

    VampireMonk
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    before Scott created R-max,
    my friend was all into ROSS and we trained together for about 6 months.
    I still practice it, he left to Seattle to go become one of Scott's instructors, and I
    left to pursue BJJ.

    my knowledge of ROSS and Systema has only helped my MMA skills like
    you wouldn't believe. I refuse to train MMA without it.
     
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  17. Goshinjitsu Brown Belt

    Goshinjitsu
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    Systema looks awefully fake. It seems to have nothing appealing to me.
     
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  18. sambosteve Purple Belt

    sambosteve
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    IMO...Systema has some very good movement principles and foundations, but it has been marketed to death and promoted with dubious/contradictory histories. I have read so many contradictory accounts of systema's history. One article I read in JAMA claims it's long ancient history as "Russian Martial Art" yet the recent ad in grappling magazine claims Ryabko is the founder of the system. You can't have both. In my limited experience with systema, it so distanced from practical fighting/training against resistance that is has become more of a Russian fitness or aikido program than a practical combat system.

    Unfortunately, in North America, Vasiliev is becoming very rich through mass marketing the crap out of systema. Distance learning, easily attained (and expensive) instructor certs, combat training camps for weekend warrior types, etc. I really think that any system that must depend so much on pushing it's "Special Forces" connection, rather than it's practicality, must be suspect. People should train in it because it works, not because you can run around the Canadian woods with fake AK-47s dressed in camoflage. Join the army if you want to do that. He is selling a "Russian Fantasy" and people are eating it up. Sad part is that Systema actually has some very valid principles.

    I have met and traind with Vasiliev (and some of his top/oldest students) and he is the real deal (I even have footage of him working out with my sambo coach). Some of Vasiliev's senior students that I have met actually have voiced sadness over what is happening to systema through mass marketing. Vasiliev is killing the art while making himself rich. I do think systema has practicality when it's movement philosophy is used as a supplement to other training but, be honest about what it is.

    What is the difference between Systema and Sambo? Big difference. Systema is an offshoot of combat sambo. My own coach, life long military and nearly 70 years old now used to say that systema was a less practical offshoot of combat sambo. He never said it was lacking value, just that it was not what it is marketed to be. One of my student's grandfather was a Russian Special Focres during WWII (Black Death as they called themselves - the term spetsnaz only came about in the 1970's). Many of those guys were navy folks who were re-trained for special ground ops after their fleets were decimated by the Nazis. In any event, when my student asked him about systema and the Russian Special Forces, he laughed and said he never heard of it - it was always sambo.

    I also ask, why is Putin not putting his name behind it? He is very honest about his combat sambo background from his career in the KGB. He is the first one to support sambo and promote his connection to it. He did not put a "systema" section in his judo book, he put a combat sambo section. He never mentions or promotes systema.

    Honestly, sambo's history is full of questions and contradictions too - thanks to the secret soviets. But, it is still mentioned for 70 years in some fashion or another.
     
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  19. k. mifune White Belt

    k. mifune
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    great post. Thanks for the interesting bit of info.
     
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  20. Codazo Blue Belt

    Codazo
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