Defending yourself with a knife

[barnowl]

Forget the knife unless you have time to train with it. Most gang type, and the local once as indicated by your friend's beating, are familiar with weapons.

Stabbing with a basic folder is a good way to slice you own hand up. Stabbing is also not real good for stopping someone. On the other hand it is far more lethal than slashing.

Slashing is generally safer for an untrained person. It is harder accidentally cut your self. It takes less practice and aiming. Slashing is much better at stopping aggressive movement.

For that type situation, I would really tend more towards a nice oak or hickory walking cane with a triangular cross section. It is always at the ready, most people don't recognize it as a weapon, it is heavy, and the sharp angles both cut and cause blunt force stopping trauma. finally it is also handy for when you are running away. It is much harder to dodge a spinning cane thrown at you than a small knife, when you are chasing some one.

 

[scytale]

Knife training. Gets it.

Sayoc Tactical Group, Shivworks etc all have quality programs.

I am also a big fan of Shivworks. I really like the icepick grip, edge-in stuff they teach. That P'kal folder rides with me almost everywhere.

 

[KaosX]

I'd say, a Knife isn't your Best Option. Most people who wield weapons become Entirely dependent on the weapon to save their life. Someone who is more trained, will use their free hand to parry and Never expose/block with the insides of their wrists/forearms (for cuts there can slice open tendons).
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First, you're gonna need to condition for a Fight period. You mention that you're not very fast. Perhaps that is due to obesity, short legs, poor cardio or some other trait that I have not seen? In any case, work with that ability the best that you can and remember that any weapon that you bring with you, can be taken from you.
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I'm not far into my study of martial arts but I do ask a lot of questions.

You're pretty on the spot. For as much time as you're not willing to train you have to ramp up your weapon selection.

So from what I've been able to gather from this thread

• you can't run fast or long
• you can't/won't buy a gun
• you don't have training with a knife but you want to use one to defend yourself
• because of the above reasons you probably don't train in any sort of combat sport/martial art
• Your situational awaremenss is likely lower than you think

Good training costs money. You can't just grab a knife and consider yourself armed. If you own a piano do you consider yourself a pianist, or even a musician?

There are lots of fairly cheap ways to learn some self defense skills. Boxing and Judo gyms are on the cheaper side. If you're in college there may be wrestling you can at least practice with someone there.

If not, form a club at college.

You need to learn how to recognize situations before they get the chance to occur as well. This is part of situational awareness.

 

[Frasco13]

In my defensive tactics class we were taught to be reactionary when it comes to knives, being the aggressor is more dangerous.

 

[pittelp]

Cutting, slashing and stabbing someone is good as a last resort, but without training your back to square one and plus you have your own flesh on the line. Take out a loan and buy a gun, pay for some handgun training and get a concealed handgun license. That would be one of the smartest investments you will have ever made.

 

[KaosX]

In my defensive tactics class we were taught to be reactionary when it comes to knives, being the aggressor is more dangerous.

That's the opposite of what I was taught (by several instructors).

If you are unarmed going against a knife (excluding running being the ABSOLUTE best option) then your level of unarmed violence in response needs to exceed that of the person with the knife.

Your level of reaction must be instantaneous to your attacker being in the wrong body position, or his attacking arm being milliseconds into motion. You need to step off the x, gain wrist control and understand some weapons based grappling (standing and grounded).

You will not get some flashy disarm.
You will likely be cut.

When I was confronted with a knife in a place where I was left with no option to escape, I opted to give the guy what he was asking for (my money) and guess what - he cut me anyways. This was before I was really into training etc, but I had taken a few combatives classes and was lucky to walk away with only a tiny scar (got poked with a disposable box cutter - wasnt a wide cut but it went deep).

Redzone offers a training skillset that anyone who trains in MMA can plug into their training for edged weapon countering - I've been looking into that lately.

I have another edged weapons seminar that I'm attending on friday.

Its something you have to train and maintain.

 

[jlagman]

When I was confronted with a knife in a place where I was left with no option to escape, I opted to give the guy what he was asking for (my money) and guess what - he cut me anyways...

A buddy from work teaches a self defense seminar about the "Rules of Crime" and the basic theme of his course is to never ever comply with a criminal. He was saying that all criminals require 3 factors in order to commit a crime: time, isolation, and control and that doing something to disrupt one of those can greatly increase your chance of survival. And now I totally agree, never comply.

 

[KaosX]

A buddy from work teaches a self defense seminar about the "Rules of Crime" and the basic theme of his course is to never ever comply with a criminal. He was saying that all criminals require 3 factors in order to commit a crime: time, isolation, and control and that doing something to disrupt one of those can greatly increase your chance of survival. And now I totally agree, never comply.

Yeah, I wasn't real into the whole mindset at that point in my life - I did beat that guys face into a wall though. I was 19 at that time too, so legally couldn't carry a gun either in my state.

Both of those issues are past concerns now though.

Becoming good at recognizing bad situations has kept me trouble free except for one incident that has come to me since - which couldnt have been avoided.

There's some wisdom in the saying that anywhere where you wouldnt go unarmed still really isnt somewhere where you should be going armed either.

 

[barnowl]

In my defensive tactics class we were taught to be reactionary when it comes to knives, being the aggressor is more dangerous.

If you are being reactionary you are always, always going second and have to be much faster than the attacker.
Sometimes it is not an option, to go first, but that is often a better bet when unarmed. When you are both armed the rules start to change a bit. Being the first to move is a good way to get the your knife arm cut to ribbons.

 

[barnowl]

I am also a big fan of Shivworks. I really like the icepick grip, edge-in stuff they teach. That P'kal folder rides with me almost everywhere.

Flashy looking grip, but has to many problems in my opinion:

Requires you to be very close to use.
very limited attack angles
limited to mosty tip strikes.
easy to jam and defend against.
weapon hand is far more expose than most of the grips, even than the ice-pick edge out


It really is only good for stealth/assassin work which it excels at.

 

[KaosX]

Flashy looking grip, but has to many problems in my opinion:

Requires you to be very close to use.
very limited attack angles
limited to mosty tip strikes.
easy to jam and defend against.
weapon hand is far more expose than most of the grips, even than the ice-pick edge out


It really is only good for stealth/assassin work which it excels at.

Fighting with anything other than projectile weapons by nature is more than close enough for knife tactics. You can close 21 yards in under 2 seconds.

This grip excels in defensive roles if your software matches your hardware.

It has a lot to do with a positive deployment which requires forethought into the carry system of the knife.

Here's a great article covering reverse edge tactics and some carry considerations:
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/ECQ knife work.pdf

My personal requirement for defensive tactics is up close and personal. I ride a bus, I walk through the city. I cannot control how close people come to me for any reason.

When I'm home - outside of the city my mindset changes because I'm in the suburbs/rural areas. Different skillsets entirely.

No one is saying this is the ONLY grip you can/should use - it's just a fantastic tool to have in the toolbox.

 

[jlagman]

I attended a knife defense course at work today, it was pretty fun stuff, I might look into enrolling in a knife fighting system in the near future.

 

[KaosX]

I attended a knife defense course at work today, it was pretty fun stuff, I might look into enrolling in a knife fighting system in the near future.

What kind of material did you cover?

I have a class tonight...material to cover is this

Safety Considerations
Tactical Folding Knife for Personal Defense
Understanding Criminal Assault
Tactical Folding Knife Use of Force
Tactical Folding Knife Selection
Folder vs. Fixed Blade Analysis
Carry, Presentation & In-Fight Access
Conventional & Unconventional Grips
Anatomical Targeting Priorities
Edge & Point Driven Methodologies
Countering Close Range Assaults
Countering Grabs & Chokes
Personal Emergency Medical

Most of my training so far has been fixed blade. And while that's what I carry for a secondary system to my pistol. I carry a folder for regular uses - and also sometimes just a folder because it's easy to slip in the pocket. Figured it would be good to do a class - deployment has been my issue with folders in the past but I havent had any folder training beyond some basics. I doubt it will change my mind but - I'm open to it and it is yet again - another tool in the toolbox.

 

[barnowl]

Fighting with anything other than projectile weapons by nature is more than close enough for knife tactics. You can close 21 yards in under 2 seconds.

This grip excels in defensive roles if your software matches your hardware.

It has a lot to do with a positive deployment which requires forethought into the carry system of the knife.

Here's a great article covering reverse edge tactics and some carry considerations:
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/ECQ knife work.pdf

My personal requirement for defensive tactics is up close and personal. I ride a bus, I walk through the city. I cannot control how close people come to me for any reason.

When I'm home - outside of the city my mindset changes because I'm in the suburbs/rural areas. Different skillsets entirely.

No one is saying this is the ONLY grip you can/should use - it's just a fantastic tool to have in the toolbox.

I was thinking more like you have to be inside about 20 inches vs. being at about 36 inches.

I saw nothing in that article about an edge-in ice pick grip (point down, thumb up). I saw alot of edge- in hammer grip work (point up, thumb up), which I agree is good and does not have most of the flaws I listed. I saw nothing at all wrong with that grip. We may just have had a language issue.

 

[jlagman]

What kind of material did you cover?

I have a class tonight...material to cover is this.

It was very basic and introductory, just a two day course; we learned how to check and pass and how to incorporate our various takedowns during arrest procedures into knife defense. I realize that there's very little you can learn and retain in that amount of time but it did begin to pique my interest and I may begin looking into a more serious knife fighting/defense curriculum. The biggest thing I took away from that (something I was already aware of, but actually doing various drills reinforced it) is that no matter how good you are or how shit the other guy is, if he's packing a knife, it won't be pretty and you'll likely get hurt in the process, but now I know I can learn to mitigate that injury to a certain extent.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

There's a really pretty good knife fight scene here:

YouTube - best action/knife scene ever_Ajeossi (2010)

 

[KaosX]

I was thinking more like you have to be inside about 20 inches vs. being at about 36 inches.

I saw nothing in that article about an edge-in ice pick grip (point down, thumb up). I saw alot of edge- in hammer grip work (point up, thumb up), which I agree is good and does not have most of the flaws I listed. I saw nothing at all wrong with that grip. We may just have had a language issue.

I think I actually linked you the wrong article. I lined to the edge in tip up stuff, the pikal one is different. Similar overtones though.

http://shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf

 

[Goth_Judoka]

I want to preface this with a couple of clarifications. I have a degree in criminal justice and I understand the ramifications of using a knife and in which situations I am justified in doing so. I am also a calm person who avoids areas I shouldn't be in and my first move is always to defuse a situation.

I live in a rough city with a large dangerous element. A friend of mine was jumped by a group of 3 gang members walking to school in the morning and they attacked him with objects around him (cinder block and metal bucket). Ive been aggressively approached by groups of people my self. This is what got me thinking.

I carry a knife as a tool but if I were attacked by surprise or surrounded by 2+ people and I was able to draw my knife what should my method of attack be? Upward or downward thrusts, slashes, aiming for the face/arms/arteries? Should I concentrate on one target at a time or quickly attack several targets?

I feel like I should go with a strong typical grip and stabbing, and target the most available target first.

Any input is appreciated.

(also don't say run, I'm slow. And I don't have the money for a pistol and ccw right now)

I appreciate the comments, but alot of you seem to be focusing on knife on knife fights. If I'm up against a knife with any chance of running, Im running. What I was asking about is a a group attack without weapons, as they seem to be fairly common and harder to avoid than a one on one knife fight.

How about an ASP? Longer reach than a knife, and less lethal. Just one hard strike to the side of the knee cap, and they won't have much fight left in them, if they are still standing that is....

 

[barnowl]

I think I actually linked you the wrong article. I lined to the edge in tip up stuff, the pikal one is different. Similar overtones though.

http://shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf

This is what I thought you meant really don't like it, way to easy it get you weapon hand sliced up. It makes nice secondary grip, but is a terrible primary.

 

[barnowl]

How about an ASP? Longer reach than a knife, and less lethal. Just one hard strike to the side of the knee cap, and they won't have much fight left in them, if they are still standing that is....

Nice but often less legal than the knife.