Clearing myths: Usman isn’t an elite win

Absolutely this.

Burns was supposed to lose by attempted murder before the fight.

After the fight people were actually calling Burns the hardest opponent Khamzat could face at WW.

They set these ridiculous standards then when Khamzat doesn’t live up to them they get all touchy when people hold him to those standards.
A shit ton of people said Burns was gonna beat Khamzat. Revisionist history is real on here. My goodness.
 
Is the narrative really that Usman is not an elite Win or that Khamzats win over Usman wasn't elite because he was on respirators for the last 2 rounds?
It’s also a myth that he was completely gassed, imo. Sure, he was winded and pacing himself after the first round - maybe he even blew his wad as Randy Couture would say it, but he wasn’t nearly as gassed as people claim. Khamzat is still relatively inexperienced, no one talks about that, and he fights like he is. He will only learn from these fights, and hopefully his trainers and coaches are addressing his issues.
 
Usman is the 3rd or 4th best fighter ever P4P whod beaten everyone hes ever gotten in the Octagon with.

For those saying "it's MW" A MW is awful and B this was both fighters 185 debut moving up from 170. Marty actually has a reach advantage on Chimaev btw.
It wasn’t a MW debut for Khamzat, he’s actually has fights at MW before, in UFC as well. And Usman dominated the current MW champion when they fought each other
 
Of course it's an elite win, it just wasn't a particularly convincing one. The concern wasn't the quality of opponent, it was the steep drop off from dominant 1st round to looking gassed and eating punches hoping to lnp and burn the clock
 
There’s this narrative between Shertards that Kamaru isn’t an elite win because he’s a 36 year old, shot knee, washed up WW on short notice, so a win over him at MW doesn’t mean shit.

It's an elite win because Usman is that good but most of your arguments are fake.

Anderson was the champ till 38 years old.
Bisping held the belt at 38.
GSP won the belt at 36.
Pereira won the belt at 35.
Izzy held the belt at 34.

Fake comparison, UFC is more competitive now, so champions have to be younger to perform. From 38 years old to 34 years old and Strickland is 32 years old.

Also, GSP was 36 years old against a 38 years old opponent while Kamaru was 36 years old against a 29 years old opponent. Kamaru fought a much younger opponent than him.

Usman was a huge WW and wrestled at 174 and 185 pounds in high school. He’s 6 foot tall and has 76 inch reach and walks around over 200 lbs. He also ragdolled the current MW champ when they fought each other. So no, Usman isn’t too small for MW.

Nobody cares, he made all of his career at the WW division + never missed weight, so he's a WW.

Usman fought back in March. He took some time to heal and recover and has been back in the gym for a while now. He was looking for an opponent and calling out Khamzat, so in a way he was already preparing for him. He didn’t need to cut that much weight either, so he could put in some good training in last weeks as well. Bisping beat Rockhold on short notice too, so it’s not out of the ordinary.

Speculation, you have no evidence. It was an extreme short notice, probably one of the shortest one ever seen in the UFC, that's the only actual fact.

In conclusion, there isn’t anything really to write Usman off on this one. Would’ve he beat Khamzat a year ago with a full camp? Maybe.

Reverse the situation and it's almost certain Khamzat gets crushed : full camp MW Usman vs extreme short notice WW Khamzat.
 
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1.The issue with this logic is it gives the fanbase of every champ over 30 a license to put an asterisk on every loss. If a champ loses and peoples reaction is "he lost cause he was old" what is the point of even having the fights?
2.Marty was excellent in the 2nd Edwards fight. 14 months ago. If the Chimaev fight was a 5 rounder(like seemingly every other important fight is nowadays) he would have likely won.

It's not an asterisk to say a guy is getting old. I don't even know what you're getting at there.

It matters WHEN you beat someone. It matters at what weight class. Beating BJ Penn today at LHW is not the same as beating BJ Penn in 2007 at LW.

How many examples are there of elite fighters with 2 year or 2 fight losing streaks in their mid to late 30s that go on to fight at an elite level? Are there 10 in the organization's whole history? Maybe Hendo? Randy. Figgy (mid-30s). Glover (mid-30s). It's a short list.

And as if to prove my point for me... he lost again. So now it's 3 fights and 2 years since his last win. I love Usman. I'm not bagging on him. I'm stating the FACT that he's on the back 9 of his career and he is not the man he was when was tearing up the WW division, and we shouldn't treat beaing him today the way we would when he was #1 P4P. And we shouldn't treat beating him at MW like we would at WW.
 
"Usman walks around at over 200 lbs"

WRONG! He actually said it himself he was going to be no more than 190 lbs on fight night and he was not over that. Ali Abdulaziz also confirmed the same thing and that Khamzat was around 205 - 210 lbs on fight night. It was apparent Khamzat looked significantly heavier than Usman, Usman had a big size and weight disadvantage and was anywhere between 15 - 20 lbs lighter than Khamzat.
 
You know it's something when you see more threads defending the winner than the loser.

I duno. I know sherdoggers are generally dumb, but the dagestani nuthuggers are legit mentally challenged.
 
There’s this narrative between Shertards that Kamaru isn’t an elite win because he’s a 36 year old, shot knee, washed up WW on short notice, so a win over him at MW doesn’t mean shit.

Let’s break it down:

1- Age. Is 36 a lot for MW?

Anderson was the champ till 38 years old.
Bisping held the belt at 38.
GSP won the belt at 36.
Pereira won the belt at 35.
Izzy held the belt at 34.

So 36yo is right about the average age for a MW champ. Point dismissed

2- Shot knees.

Usman had knee problems even before his title reign at WW, so it’s not something new or a deciding factor in this fight.

3- Washed up.

Just a little bit more than a year ago, Kamaru was considered p4p #1 fighter in the world. His first loss was against Leon, where he was convincingly winning the fight till he got caught by a headkick that would’ve finished anyone. Even the 2nd fight was much more competitive than many give credit for. It was a majority decision after all. And in Khamzat fight he looked very good and that fight should’ve been scored a draw. So no, Kamaru isn’t shot.

4- Usman is a WW.

Usman was a huge WW and wrestled at 174 and 185 pounds in high school. He’s 6 foot tall and has 76 inch reach and walks around over 200 lbs. He also ragdolled the current MW champ when they fought each other. So no, Usman isn’t too small for MW.

5- Short notice.

Usman fought back in March. He took some time to heal and recover and has been back in the gym for a while now. He was looking for an opponent and calling out Khamzat, so in a way he was already preparing for him. He didn’t need to cut that much weight either, so he could put in some good training in last weeks as well. Bisping beat Rockhold on short notice too, so it’s not out of the ordinary.

In conclusion, there isn’t anything really to write Usman off on this one. Would’ve he beat Khamzat a year ago with a full camp? Maybe.

The fact is that Usman is still an elite win, even at MW.

Well put

I put on a couple of these in the past, but I realized something very pertinent along the way

There's always gonna be a Hooters tshirt wearing neckbeard that hasn't the faintest clue to recognize talent, or logic for that matter.

That is why I have resorted to mostly shittin on them

It's my way of giving em a chance to think straight
 
No.

Not because Marty may not be x y or z, but because Marty is unproven at MW.

Khamzat was also unproven at MW.

When he beats a long-term elite MW, then it's an easier gauge.

Bobby.
Vettori.
Costa.
Du Plessis.

Then we can grasp his ability.

Khamzat is clearly a good fighter but his fanbase extrapolate that to be:

Beating Usman = title shot.

Gtfo here.
 
It's not an asterisk to say a guy is getting old. I don't even know what you're getting at there.

It matters WHEN you beat someone. It matters at what weight class. Beating BJ Penn today at LHW is not the same as beating BJ Penn in 2007 at LW.

How many examples are there of elite fighters with 2 year or 2 fight losing streaks in their mid to late 30s that go on to fight at an elite level? Are there 10 in the organization's whole history? Maybe Hendo? Randy. Figgy (mid-30s). Glover (mid-30s). It's a short list.

And as if to prove my point for me... he lost again. So now it's 3 fights and 2 years since his last win. I love Usman. I'm not bagging on him. I'm stating the FACT that he's on the back 9 of his career and he is not the man he was when was tearing up the WW division, and we shouldn't treat beaing him today the way we would when he was #1 P4P. And we shouldn't treat beating him at MW like we would at WW.

If someones old and is winning fights and one day he loses well of a sudden he wasn't at his peak because he lost. Invalidates the passing of the crown. Like AS is on a 16 fight win streak then he loses and now hes washed. Or if Fedor wasn't prime Fedor when he lost to Hendo. If someone has the belt or a certain rank at an advanced age they shouldn't be taken as irelevant the moment they lose because that's unfair to the person that beat them.

In terms of being elite in their late 30s and early 40s it's common at the big weights rare at the small weights. At HW there should be 10 for sure probably a bit more when you factor in your Bellators etc. When fighters lose at an elite level they get knocked down the ladder and their level of competition gives them the oppurtunity to get back in contention.. Also title fights are often stretched out a year. If fighters a champ that's not abnormal at all. We might not like it but that's the reality of the sport now.

Well during Marty era and today WW was better than MW. I expect him to go on a tear at MW if he keeps fighting cause he is considerably better than most of the fighters in that division and around their size. Khazmat was a WW albeit a slightly bigger one making his debut the same fight as Marty.

Why should we treat this fight different than WW when we already expected this matchup to eventually happen at 170 if Marty had beat Edwards? Khazmat is probably going to win the belt and be the champ at MW anyway. If Marty won the 2nd Edwards fight, fought Khzmat for the title and barely lost would you share the same way? Because the only thing seperating that from the current reality is Edwards executing on a kick with time winding down.

I never suggested Martys not on the back 9 or even like back 4. It's not combat sports but a good example is Brady on the Bucs. He was clearly on the "back 9" but he was playing at an elite level had some of his best years. If your closer to the end of your career then the beginning that doesn't mean you don't have it anymore. Would people have denied AS was "on the back 9" near the end of his title reign. No.
 
1- Age. Is 36 a lot for MW?

Anderson was the champ till 38 years old.
Bisping held the belt at 38.
GSP won the belt at 36.
Pereira won the belt at 35.
Izzy held the belt at 34.

Wow, that's worse than MMA Math. It's safe to stop reading after that.
  • Bisping was largely a fluke who got to fight a 46-year old for a title defense. He wouldn't have held the belt after the Rockhold win if he had to face someone like Jacare as he should have.
  • GSP was another fluke, a handpicked opponent so Bisping didn't have to face a Jacare or Whittaker. He won the belt and promptly retired. That should tell you how confident he was as a former WW at age 36 with bad knees (same as Usman)
  • Yes, Anderson had the belt at 38 but peaked when he was a champ about 4-7 years earlier.
  • Same with Izzy. He won the belt at age 29. So his average age as champ was more like 32.
  • Rockhold won the belt at 30 and Weidman won it at 29. Neither held it past age 31.
  • Going way back, Rich Franklin held the belt around ages 30-32. That's the average age when most of these guys have peaked. Yoel is an odd exception who came to the sport late in life...but he also never won the belt
 
Burns. Arguably the best win of the 3, but if you take a look closer his resume is eerily similar to Colby's. A lot of decision wins over 40 year old fighters well past their best. He's also defined by a fight he lost but looked good in, against an as then unproven Khamzat.
I think Colby is probably a better win, but either way one of those is the top win for Usman. And both are small WWs. Colby was very comptitive with Usman and I think he may have won if they were the same size, but I digress...

As for your other point, beating a bunch of old guys is true of most WW competitors (Belal, Edwards, etc.). They all seemed to take turns beating Maia, Wonderboy, Lawler, RDA, Nate Diaz, Masvidal, Cerrone, etc. Only Colby seems to catch flak for it, though.
 
It wasn’t a MW debut for Khamzat, he’s actually has fights at MW before, in UFC as well. And Usman dominated the current MW champion when they fought each other

Fair enough. You get the point though.

And yes he did.
 
Nah, this is just another “fighter lost, he was never that good” with a different wrapping.
This approach is more nuanced and polite though. They can say (a) he was good, but not anymore, however (b) he never was any good at MW.
 
Quality of defenses matter(a lesson we all should have learned from Izzy) as does non title fights if theres good wins there. GSPs only wins that aged well were Fitch and Shields and only the Fitch win was dominant. The Serra win was dominant but that fight only happened cause GSP lost. Whats his third best win? Koscheck? Hughes and Penn were from the first generation of MMA and they only beat and almost beat GSP in earlier fights cause he was super green.

Marty has the 2 weak Masvidal wins but GSPs got like 5 or 6 of those.

Marty never got KTFOd by Matt Serra. He lost 2 in a row to a guy he already beat and then Chimaev whose undefeated. Edwards and Chimaev won a combined 16 fights in a row before fighting Marty.

The double champ thing is the stupid Conor argument. Winning 1 fight over the champ of a 2nd division is not a replacement for a title reign. It is a title fight and its value should depend on the opponent. And GSP fought a man with 1 eye then ducked a stacked division after promising not to.

PS-Hendricks win isn't really a defense.
I hard agree with all of this, that’s not what the best fighter of all time does. The same as the best fighter of all time doesn’t come out of retirement to fight Jaideep Singh and Fabio Maldanobo
 
Usman just went tooth and nail with Leon Edwards a few months ago, and now he’s a bum that Khamzat should’ve finished in a round lmao
 
If someones old and is winning fights and one day he loses well of a sudden he wasn't at his peak because he lost. Invalidates the passing of the crown. Like AS is on a 16 fight win streak then he loses and now hes washed.

I don't get where the idea that losing the title invalidates the title win comes from. But it's almost certainly the beginning of the end. Another loss later, there isn't a whole lot to talk about.

Getting old happens overnight. And sometimes it's part of how titles change hands. That doesn't invalidate the new champ because he's still the guy that stepped up and was in the right place at the right time and fought the correct game plan. Props to that guy.

That's very different than a guy who's now lost back to back and hasn't won in 2 years.

In terms of being elite in their late 30s and early 40s it's common at the big weights rare at the small weights.

I didn't say being elite late in their careers. I'm saying guys who lost back to back in their mid to late 30s rallying back to be elite is incredibly rare. I don't know if there are 10 guys ever who've done that. I'd agree that it's probably easier for bigger guys because speed is less of a factor.

I expect him to go on a tear at MW if he keeps fighting cause he is considerably better than most of the fighters in that division

He was. That ship has sailed. Honestly, I hope you're right and I'm wrong, because I'm a big Usman fan. In a year or so we may have the answer. If he goes on to beat DDP, Whittaker, or Vittori in a few months I'll be glad to be wrong. I wouldn't bet a dime on it though.

If Marty won the 2nd Edwards fight, fought Khzmat for the title and barely lost would you share the same way? Because the only thing seperating that from the current reality is Edwards executing on a kick with time winding down.

The only thing "seperating that from the current reality" is 3 straight losses. There's no silver medal in this sport. Almost counts in Darts, Archery, and Hand Grenades. Not in MMA. Sure, hypothetically, if Usman had won his last 3 and was on an 18 fight streak I'd feel differently than if he was on a 3 fights skid. Can we have Anderson win his last 9 in this made up reality too?

a good example is Brady on the Bucs. He was clearly on the "back 9" but he was playing at an elite level had some of his best years.

We've seen Usman playing at an elite level and having his best years as well. This is not what it looks like.
 
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