China Getting Ready To Dump Lithium Ion Batteries On The World For Cheap

[PEB]

China getting ready to do what they did to Silicon chips by dumping batteries at 40 percent cheaper then anyone else in industry.

Major manufacturers such as Tesla, Panasonic, Samsung SDI and LG are getting hit today with their stock. The Chinese vedors claim to be making money even as they drop their prices dramatically.

LG and Tesla just created new battery cemistry to allow for higher storage densities. This may not offer enough advantages to a 40 percent drop in prices. This could be the first signs of a trade war with China.

I suspect the next wave of a trade war will be with green energy and technology again like solar panels and now batteries.


https://www.google.com/amp/www.forb...-trouble-for-tesla/?client=ms-android-verizon

 

[m52nickerson]

How much trouble this will be of companies like Tesla will depend on how well those Chinese battery function. China tried the same thing with capacitors years ago but because of a lack of quality (and the capacitor plague of the early 2000's) Japanese and Taiwanese caps still fetch a higher price.

 

[Tamriel Terror]

China getting ready to do what they did to Silicon chips by dumping batteries at 40 percent cheaper then anyone else in industry.

Major manufacturers such as Tesla, Panasonic, Samsung SDI and LG are getting hit today with their stock. The Chinese vedors claim to be making money even as they drop their prices dramatically.

LG and Tesla just created new battery cemistry to allow for higher storage densities. This may not offer enough advantages to a 40 percent drop in prices. This could be the first signs of a trade war with China.

I suspect the next wave of a trade war will be with green energy and technology again like solar panels and now batteries.


https://www.google.com/amp/www.forb...-trouble-for-tesla/?client=ms-android-verizon

I really hope so. Shit would be awesome to have a trade war towards sustainability

 

[jefferz]

I'm sure the lithium and other precious metals the Chinese are sourcing for these batteries are mined using the most environmentally friendly method, that's why their cheaper.

 

[ehtheist]

I'm sure the lithium and other precious metals the Chinese are sourcing for these batteries are mined using the most environmentally friendly method, that's why their cheaper.

Eh, as long as they end up in an iPhone or MacBook, the people who usually *freak out* over issues like this have long since proven they don't give a shit how they're obtained.

 

[Orgasmo]

As long as it lowers price for consumers.

 

[ehtheist]

As long as it lowers price for consumers.

Is that really the only concern we have when it comes to the production of a product?

 

[Long Dark Blues]

Time will tell how many of those batteries will actually work, let alone work well enough to worry anyone else in the industry.

 

[Orgasmo]

Is that really the only concern we have when it comes to the production of a product?

Consumers and companies will always pick the product that is most competitive in pricing. You can throw in all kinds of nationalism and quality argument, but it's money that determines the winner at the end of the day. That's reality, not "buy [insert nationality]" slogans.

 

[Bald1]

I'm sure the lithium and other precious metals the Chinese are sourcing for these batteries are mined using the most environmentally friendly method, that's why their cheaper.

I also can't see them cutting other corners in order to bring down operating costs. No sir. We're bound to end up with a greener and better product, for a fraction of the price.

 

[Gunny]

I sure can't wait to buy my Chinese-made house incendiary device for 40% less!

 

[n...not crazy]

Tesla is up 2.6%
Panasonic is down 0.38%

 

[ehtheist]

Consumers and companies will always pick the product that is most competitive in pricing. You can throw in all kinds of nationalism and quality argument, but it's money that determines the winner at the end of the day. That's reality, not "buy [insert nationality]" slogans.

Oh? It's always pricing and just pricing? So, expensive German and Japanese knives, high end cars, expensive brand name products, expensive organic/free trade/non-GMO stuff, etc etc etc, they're just... What? What's going on there when they're succeeding while being priced *far* higher than many competitors' products? Hell, if you look into electronics, you'll oftentimes find objectively superior products priced lower than objectively inferior ones because, while pricing matters, things like brand recognition and image/status are also very important to saleability.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize that pricing is a *huge* factor but there are countless examples of products that have thrived when their pricing is far from the bottom. It's only if you interpret "most competitive in pricing" and have that mean that "They have a good price plus other characteristics which make them favourable" that your statement ring true. If that's what you mean by "competitive pricing" my original post was spot on in pointing to the fact that there are factors other than pricing which make a product desirable.

 

[Gunny]

Oh? It's always pricing and just pricing? So, expensive German and Japanese knives, high end cars, expensive brand name products, expensive organic/free trade/non-GMO stuff, etc etc etc, they're just... What? What's going on there when they're succeeding while being priced *far* higher than many competitors products? Hell, if you look into electronics, you'll oftentimes find objectively superior products priced lower than objectively inferior ones because, while pricing matters, things like brand recognition and image/status are also very important to saleability.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize that pricing is a *huge* factor but there are countless examples of products that have thrived when their pricing is far from the bottom. It's only if you interpret "most competitive in pricing" and have that mean that "They have a good price plus other characteristics which make them favourable" that your statement rings true. If that's what you mean by "competitive pricing" my original post was spot on in pointing to the fact that there are factors other than pricing which make a product desirable.

As someone who manufactures expensive modern furniture in the USA I'm very grateful that you - and not the guy you're quoting - are correct.

 

[ehtheist]

As someone who manufactures expensive modern furniture in the USA I'm very grateful that you - and not the guy you're quoting - are correct.

Eh, I try and buy American - or at least first world - products wherever I can and as much as I can afford and I'm willing to pay a premium for A) quality, and B) knowing that my money is going to someone working for a decent wage and their taxes go back into a place that is aspiring towards a high standard of living. I'm not alone in this which is why there are markets for products which do cost more but have a different origin/method of production/whatever, but the astounding success of places like Wal Mart show that, to a great degree, price is a motivating factor. Not the only one, but a big one...

 

[Orgasmo]

Oh? It's always pricing and just pricing? So, expensive German and Japanese knives, high end cars, expensive brand name products, expensive organic/free trade/non-GMO stuff, etc etc etc, they're just... What? What's going on there when they're succeeding while being priced *far* higher than many competitors' products? Hell, if you look into electronics, you'll oftentimes find objectively superior products priced lower than objectively inferior ones because, while pricing matters, things like brand recognition and image/status are also very important to saleability.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize that pricing is a *huge* factor but there are countless examples of products that have thrived when their pricing is far from the bottom. It's only if you interpret "most competitive in pricing" and have that mean that "They have a good price plus other characteristics which make them favourable" that your statement ring true. If that's what you mean by "competitive pricing" my original post was spot on in pointing to the fact that there are factors other than pricing which make a product desirable.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but German and Japanese brands' market share have consistently shrunk in the past decade to a wave of Chinese goods. While there are other variables, the cost is the greatest single determining factor when it comes to consumer decisions. You need to gain a foothold in the market through low cost before you can climb the ladder. US did this in the 1800's, displacing British goods.

Japanese cars were considered cheap knockoffs in the 1960's, but that didn't prevent them from ripping a large chunk out of the American market. American patriotism didn't stop the advance of Japanese companies in the 1970's. Of course, Japanese goods improved their quality over time. That's how countries work their way up from the bottom of the food chain. It's the exact same path China is following. US, Japanese and European brands aren't going anywhere, but they will have to deal with the reality that Chinese brands will soon compete with them on equal footing within a decade or so.

No amount of "Buy American" chants can change natural economic trajectory.

 

[JohnnySagebrush]

I suspect the next wave of a trade war will be with green energy and technology again like solar panels and now batteries.


https://www.google.com/amp/www.forb...-trouble-for-tesla/?client=ms-android-verizon

China is already doing this with solar panels, a family friend lost his job recently at a large solar panel manufacturer, and this is a white-collar executive position, not manufacturing. I was very surprised. He claims that with the prices they are selling the market for, they must be breaking even at best.
Someone in the WR also shared a story about China undercutting the American furniture market, even though China had to import their Walnut stock from the US.

 

[ehtheist]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but German and Japanese brands' market share have consistently shrunk in the past decade to a wave of Chinese goods. While there are other variables, the cost is the greatest single determining factor when it comes to consumer decisions. You need to gain a foothold in the market through low cost before you can climb the ladder. US did this in the 1800's, displacing British goods.

Japanese cars were considered cheap knockoffs in the 1960's, but that didn't prevent them from ripping a large chunk out of the American market. American patriotism didn't stop the advance of Japanese companies in the 1970's. Of course, Japanese goods improved their quality over time. That's how countries work their way up to the bottom of the food chain. It's the exact same path China is following. US, Japanese and European brands aren't going anywhere, but they will have to deal with the reality that Chinese brands will soon compete with them on equal footing within a decade or so.

No amount of "Buy American" chants can change this economic trajectory.

Of course those markets have shrunk in some cases - but that's not what you came in saying. What you said was:

Consumers and companies will always pick the product that is most competitive in pricing. You can throw in all kinds of nationalism and quality argument, but it's money that determines the winner at the end of the day. That's reality, not "buy [insert nationality]" slogans.

You didn't say "Price is a factor that leads to long term market-share erosion of more expensive products." You didn't even say "Price is the single greatest determining factor." You said that "Consumers and companies will always pick the product that is most competitive in pricing" and now you're trying to weasel back on this very strong claim and slip in a set of weaker claims which are more reasonable.

If price is the factor that makes people "always pick" the product, the brand name, method of production, image or status tied to the item, quality, national origin, organic/non-GMO/whatever wouldn't matter, but everyone here knows that they do - hence why you got called out on that boneheaded first comment, and why you're now doubling back and putting in weaker claims to save face. Either that or you're just stupid, doubling down, and not even realizing you're now making a different set of claims than you started with.

In very simple terms, if your "Consumers and companies will always pick the product that is most competitive in pricing" companies like Apple and high-end Android phone makers would have been priced out of the phone market long ago and there would only be low end products available - but that's obviously not the case. There are mirrors of this across countless industries, proving your original statement to be bullshit. Now if you actually go back to the position you originally adopted and I pointed out the stupidity of, you'd just say "yeah, you're right." Instead you're changing your arguments mid debate... Anyways, stupid argument, not worth any more time if you're unwilling to even say "Yeah, I misspoke at first - what I meant was..."

 

[chardog]

How much trouble this will be of companies like Tesla will depend on how well those Chinese battery function. China tried the same thing with capacitors years ago but because of a lack of quality (and the capacitor plague of the early 2000's) Japanese and Taiwanese caps still fetch a higher price.

I was into the battery market years back when I used to fiddle with eletric toys, and even then, you could get really nice quality 18650's from china. Lipo batteries in general, were really good, and those are basically the high end stuff that tesla and company use. Lipo is considered very high density and quality, havent kept much with battery tech since. This is one area, where it's really hard to justify "American" quality since a battery is like gasoline, it's just a block of energy, do we care where we get it from? We get gasoline from the middle east FFS <DrakeLaugh>

 

[KantoTerror]

Is that really the only concern we have when it comes to the production of a product?

as a consumer...do you really know or care what they do in a chinese takeout kitchen? or you just eat when the food arrives?