Bisping: If you believe Jesus walked on water, you can believe I'm going to KO Rockhold

[CDF47]

"In living cells, most catalysts are protein enzymes, composed of amino acids, but in the 1980s another kind of catalyst was discovered. These are RNA molecules composed of nucleotides that are now called ribozymes. /.../

For the purposes of today’s column I will go through the probability calculation that a specific ribozyme might assemble by chance. Assume that the ribozyme is 300 nucleotides long, and that at each position there could be any of four nucleotides present. The chances of that ribozyme assembling are then 4^300, a number so large that it could not possibly happen by chance even once in 13 billion years, the age of the universe.

But life DID begin! Could we be missing something?

The answer, of course, is yes, we are. The calculation assumes that a single specific ribozyme must be synthesized for life to begin, but that’s not how it works. Instead, let’s make the plausible assumption that an enormous number of random polymers are synthesized, which are then subject to selection and evolution. /.../ we can test it. /.../

After only 4 rounds of selection and amplification they began to see an increase in catalytic activity, and after 10 rounds the rate was 7 million times faster than the uncatalyzed rate. It was even possible to watch the RNA evolve. /.../ Some came to dominate the reaction, while others went extinct.

By the way, this is the same basic logic that breeders use when they select for a property such as coat color in dogs."

Read Bartel and Szostak, published in Science in 1993.

Read full column:
http://www.science20.com/stars_planets_life/calculating_odds_life_could_begin_chance

No gods, no monsters, no aliens needed.

Trying to explain the absolute impossibility of DNA occurring randomly is a nice attempt at a grasp for straws, at best.

DNA is an extremely highly specified and complex code which provides the instructions for a nano-manufacturing plant to build proteins for living cells. Proteins have a wide range of function in the cell; such as, building components of the cell to harvesting energy.

There are complex molecular machines, like the bacteria flagellum, that are irreducibly complex, meaning if one part is removed or damaged in the system then the system is either degraded or fails to function.

One example is the bacteria flagellum which is a molecular machine that operates like an outboard motor complete with a propeller, drive shaft, and u-joints. It is said to be the most efficient motor in the universe as it can rotate at 100,000 RPM and stop on a dime and reverse direction in a quarter turn.

These machines in the cells of living systems are built part by part in a nano-manufacturing plant using the code inside the DNA molecule. There are codes instructing the machine to start assembling parts in specific orders and instructing when to stop the assembly. There are spell checker type enzymes searching and correcting errors in the code, there is copying and transporting of the code. DNA has nested coding. DNA has a files within folders hierarchical structure. A senior software engineer with Microsoft once said DNA follows design strategies similar to those used by their software programmers but one far more advanced than they have been able to devise.

The specific genetic instructions to build a protein in even the simplest one celled organism would fill hundreds of pages of printed text.

Approximately 3 percent of DNA encodes protein sequences and the other 97 percent is noncoding DNA. Noncoding DNA transcribes into functional non-coding RNA molecules (like transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulator RNAs). Other functions of noncoding DNA include transcriptional and translational regulation of protein-coding sequences, scaffold attachment regions, origins of DNA replication, centormeters and telomeres. This is no longer referred to as "junk DNA." That was an old term. The noncoding DNA is more like the operating system.

Watch the 3 minute and 34 second video below on how DNA works if you are interested (there is a real good and easy to understand computer generated model showing how DNA works in this short video):


Another longer video is below:

 

[NikLuk]

Trying to explain the absolute impossibility of DNA occurring randomly is a nice attempt at a grasp for straws, at best.

DNA is an extremely highly specified and complex code which provides the instructions for a nano-manufacturing plant to build proteins for living cells. Proteins have a wide range of function in the cell; such as, building components of the cell to harvesting energy.

There are complex molecular machines, like the bacteria flagellum, that are irreducibly complex, meaning if one part is removed or damaged in the system then the system is either degraded or fails to function.

One example is the bacteria flagellum which is a molecular machine that operates like an outboard motor complete with a propeller, drive shaft, and u-joints. It is said to be the most efficient motor in the universe as it can rotate at 100,000 RPM and stop on a dime and reverse direction in a quarter turn.

These machines in the cells of living systems are built part by part in a nano-manufacturing plant using the code inside the DNA molecule. There are codes instructing the machine to start assembling parts in specific orders and instructing when to stop the assembly. There are spell checker type enzymes searching and correcting errors in the code, there is copying and transporting of the code. DNA has nested coding. DNA has a files within folders hierarchical structure. A senior software engineer with Microsoft once said DNA follows design strategies similar to those used by their software programmers but one far more advanced than they have been able to devise.

The specific genetic instructions to build a protein in even the simplest one celled organism would fill hundreds of pages of printed text.

Approximately 3 percent of DNA encodes protein sequences and the other 97 percent is noncoding DNA. Noncoding DNA transcribes into functional non-coding RNA molecules (like transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulator RNAs). Other functions of noncoding DNA include transcriptional and translational regulation of protein-coding sequences, scaffold attachment regions, origins of DNA replication, centormeters and telomeres. This is no longer referred to as "junk DNA." That was an old term. The noncoding DNA is more like the operating system.

Watch the 3 minute and 34 second video below on how DNA works if you are interested (there is a real good and easy to understand computer generated model showing how DNA works in this short video):


Another longer video is below:

Did you just respond to my response by copy-pasting your original post? ><

 

[dickcheney]

Christian scientists: gee, this is complicated, throw it in the "God made it" pile

 

[CDF47]

Unfortunately you've just introduced an infinite series (the "it's turtles all the way down" series). Who designed the intelligent designer (who by your argument has to as or more complex than the designed aliens). And who designed the designer of the intelligent designer. And so on, ad infinitum.

This has been gone over for centuries, and the conclusion is always the same - the argument from design is an infinite recession unless someone postulates (or defines if you prefer) a first cause. And anyone can arbitrarily define anything as the first cause (that's the nature of a postulate). It could be God, it could be an infinite universe (the multiverse hypothesis for instance is physically consistent with our current physics), it could be the Flying Spagetti monster, it could be a random quantum fluctuation (yes, that's there as a physical option, its possible according to quantum theory, as anyone with grad level physics will assure you). Take your pick.

The point was, aliens as typically portrayed by the media, television, books,..., reside within the boundaries of this universe. The universe they live in is clearly designed as it is fine-tuned to an unimaginable extent. So the Intelligent Source which designed living systems must reside outside the boundaries of this universe. That Source must have intelligence to design and create living systems and the universe due to the astounding specificity and complexity of DNA and the universe which absolutely boggles the human mind. Science reaches a peak at this point and a search into theology becomes necessary to search for answers.

 

[Scamrock]

DNA & fine-tuning of the universe proves the existence of the design of living systems and the universe.

Science reaches a plateau at this point and it becomes necessary to step into theology to search for answers. There are three religions which teach a practical system of creation; Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

The Islam creation story is not backed by science at all. Genesis provides a unified description of Creation; the Qur'an does not. Instead, fragmented passages are scattered across many of its 114 chapters (‘Sura’). The Qur'an claims man was created in Paradise, not on earth, and the first couple were later banished to earth, which science proves otherwise. The Qur'an describes the earth being formed before the stars and from "smoke" or material that pre-dates stars which science proves otherwise (there is no stage of the universe which involved smoke nor did the earth and heavens come together at any point of time (earth is part of the universe developed within). The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too. This is consistent with an earth-centered (geocentric) view of the cosmos that places a motionless earth at the center of the universe and all "heavenly bodies" travel around the earth. The Qur'an assumes a flat earth which has physical places into which the sun sets and rises from. The Qur'an inaccurately does not differentiate between stars (giant balls of gas thousands of times larger than the earth) and meteorites which are small rocky masses of debris which brighten up after entering the earth's atmosphere. The Qur'an and Hadith claim that the moon was miraculously split into two pieces, and then, presumably, put back together again. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that the moon has ever been split into two. The Qur'an claims there are 7 heavens and 7 planets in the universe, which is in direct conflict with science. The Qur'an claims the sun is a flat disk and can be folded up. The Qur'an claims the sky is a tent/dome which it clearly is not. There are numerous other scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an included in the following website; https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran.

Only Christianity and Judaism have a scientifically backed creation story and an untouchable scientific basis throughout the scriptures. The Book of Genesis clearly matches with the scientific explanation of the creation of the universe, the stars, the earth, the sun, the moon, the planets, the plants, and life. See the following chart for a breakdown of creation in the Bible compared to science;http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/day-age.html . Old Earth Creationism is backed by science. There is limited evolution, meaning change over time, but living systems and the universe as a whole were designed and created as proven by DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe.

There is only one source which prophesizes (foretells) thousands of years of this world's history, with astounding precision, written in an encoded symbolic language; and that source is the Bible. The Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, in particular, are amazing when properly interpreted, in addition to all the other prophecies. The prophecy symbols are available at; http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/topics/bible-symbols. These symbols are the keys to unlocking the code of the Book, as the Bible interprets itself.

In fact, DNA for all human beings is being traced back to a single man and a single women:
http://www.charismanews.com/world/50749-genetics-expert-confirms-the-reality-of-adam-and-eve

Jesus is backed historically by a number of top historians:
http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources

Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

Its clear you put more stock in the bible than I do. You make a big deal about science, as if christianity is supported by science but islam isnt. But i guess you are okay with the parts of the bible that deal with miracles and other things that would otherwise be impossible. You wont believe other creation stories because they arent scientific enough. But you are okay with chariots of fire, walking on water and stuff like that? Forgive me, but it seems like cherry picking.

 

[Gorkle]

Check the facts. Life is either random or designed. Those are the only two options. DNA shows that life is obviously clearly designed, absolutely no doubt about it. Study DNA, how it works, and you will clearly see that it is not random but obviously designed. Same is true for the universe which is fine-tuned to an unimaginable extent.

It comes down to one of two things.

Either shit just happens randomly, or shit just happened and it has magical powers that make literally no sense.

 

[CDF47]

Yet you fail to see the same argument goes for your "intelligent creator".

Wrong, my point is living systems and the universe are designed and created; which science clearly now shows, specifically with DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe. It takes an Intelligence to design and create these highly extremely specified and complex systems. Again, this is where science reaches a plateau and it becomes necessary to step into theology to search for answers.

 

[HI SCOTT NEWMAN]

that magican walked on water, the English guy. I forget his name

 

[Scamrock]

The point was, aliens as typically portrayed by the media, television, books,..., reside within the boundaries of this universe. The universe they live in is clearly designed as it is fine-tuned to an unimaginable extent. So the Intelligent Source which designed living systems must reside outside the boundaries of this universe. That Source must have intelligence to design and create living systems and the universe due to the astounding specificity and complexity of DNA and the universe which absolutely boggles the human mind. Science reaches a peak at this point and a search into theology becomes necessary to search for answers.

The problem with the search for answers is that we try to fill in the blanks. We dont know? God. We dont believe in god? Aliens. The truth is, we dont know. We should wait until we have more to work with.

 

[CDF47]

Its clear you put more stock in the bible than I do. You make a big deal about science, as if christianity is supported by science but islam isnt. But i guess you are okay with the parts of the bible that deal with miracles and other things that would otherwise be impossible. You wont believe other creation stories because they arent scientific enough. But you are okay with chariots of fire, walking on water and stuff like that? Forgive me, but it seems like cherry picking.

My point was the creation story and other statements about science in the Bible are accurate and correct and the creation stories and scientific claims in Islam are not. For instance, Islam claims the earth and sun are flat which is clearly not the case (see post above).

Regarding miracles in the Bible, subatomic particles react as if they know when they will be observed by a conscious observer. I believe this is possible since the Creator can manipulate the universe explaining the signs and wonders. Quantum mechanics makes no sense at the subatomic level. It is crazy randomness with particles in two places at one time entangled and reactive to each other, regardless of distance apart, instantly. Particles behaving as waves or particles depending on observation is also yet unexplained by science. This is how I believe God builds and can manipulate this universe from the ground up instantaneously upon prayer and thought. He created the universe so He can manipulate the laws when He decides to.

 

[CDF47]

The problem with the search for answers is that we try to fill in the blanks. We dont know? God. We dont believe in god? Aliens. The truth is, we dont know. We should wait until we have more to work with.

We have what we were given at this point which are science and theology. Science shows clearly that living systems and the universe were designed and created. From there, there is one source which matches with science and also predicts thousands of years of this world's history with astounding precision. See posts above regarding that source.

 

[ChopToTheButt]

Well this thread became horse shit and nothing to do with MMA real fast.

 

[NikLuk]

Wrong, my point is living systems and the universe are designed and created; which science clearly now shows, specifically with DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe. It takes an Intelligence to design and create these highly extremely specified and complex systems. Again, this is where science reaches a plateau and it becomes necessary to step into theology to search for answers.

Well obviously we do not know how life started. It doesn't mean that the "god of the gaps" should be applied to fill this gap of knowledge until we find out the answer (if we ever do).

But nothing suggests any creator of any sort. Your claim has as much credidt to it as does the easter bunny, Sauron, Harry Potter or any other story. What does your claim have that is more true than any other of todays religions or the ones that have become myth over the centuries?

Or in the words of Laplace (or close enough anyway) on why he didn't include God in his Mécanique céleste: "I had no use of that hypothesis."

 

[Dead Kennedy]

Wrong, my point is living systems and the universe are designed and created; which science clearly now shows, specifically with DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe. It takes an Intelligence to design and create these highly extremely specified and complex systems. Again, this is where science reaches a plateau and it becomes necessary to step into theology to search for answers.

While I don't believe that it is divine or spiritual, I believe there is a factual science based explanation behind everything, but the probability of human life evolving at the rate at which we have, relatively compared to our predecessors, it is highly likely that there could have been some sort of outside influence. But that's my opinion.

 

[Scamrock]

My point was the creation story and other statements about science in the Bible are accurate and correct and the creation stories and scientific claims in Islam are not. For instance, Islam claims the earth and sun are flat which is clearly not the case (see post above).

Regarding miracles in the Bible, subatomic particles react as if they know when they will be observed by a conscious observer. I believe this is possible since the Creator can manipulate the universe explaining the signs and wonders. Quantum mechanics makes no sense at the subatomic level. It is crazy randomness with particles in two places at one time entangled and reactive to each other, regardless of distance apart, instantly. Particles behaving as waves or particles depending on observation is also yet unexplained by science. This is how I believe God builds and can manipulate this universe from the ground up instantaneously upon prayer and thought. He created the universe so He can manipulate the laws when He decides to.

Even if its all true, does the creater really intervene? Or could some of it just be either bs people made up, fables that are just attributed to god, or just a misinterpretation of what less informed people were seeing in the physical world, and their attempt to explain it?

Im not saying some things in tbe bible cant be supported by science. But it doesnt mean everything in there is legit. Some could be parables, some could be people who believed what they wrote. Some could be flat out fabrications passed off as the truth.

Men still wrote the bible. Some people believe in biblical inerrancy. But there are too many different translations, versions, some with other books added or left out, etc. Hell, there isnt even a consensus in christianity about what is what, how it works, how we should behave, etc.

There is a lot we dont know. Im fine with people believing whatever they want. But some people take it too far. Belief and even assumptions arent a substitite for knowledge.

 

[Scamrock]

We have what we were given at this point which are science and theology. Science shows clearly that living systems and the universe were designed and created. From there, there is one source which matches with science and also predicts thousands of years of this world's history with astounding precision. See posts above regarding that source.

You keep saying its clear. Why is there not a consensus among experts in the field?

 

[CDF47]

Well obviously we do not know how life started. It doesn't mean that the "god of the gaps" should be applied to fill this gap of knowledge until we find out the answer (if we ever do).

But nothing suggests any creator of any sort. Your claim has as much credidt to it as does the easter bunny, Sauron, Harry Potter or any other story. What does your claim have that is more true than any other of todays religions or the ones that have become myth over the centuries?

Or in the words of Laplace (or close enough anyway) on why he didn't include God in his Mécanique céleste: "I had no use of that hypothesis."

The point is life was designed and created, as was the universe which is clear.

Theology is the only place to turn at this point. There is one source which matches with science, history, archaeology, and also predicts thousands of years of this world's history with astounding precision and that source is the Bible. Thousands of predictions are accurately made. Even lesser known predictions, like the relationship between Cleopatra and Caesar, are in the Bible, hundreds of years prior to their birth.

You mention Laplace was an atheist but you forgot to mention that Newton, Einstein, and many many other of the world's top scientists believed in a Creator.

 

[wtkace**]

Jacare will most likely get the shot before Luke while Luke will fight Weidman again for the no.1 contender.

 

[CDF47]

While I don't believe that it is divine or spiritual, I believe there is a factual science based explanation behind everything, but the probability of human life evolving at the rate at which we have, relatively compared to our predecessors, it is highly likely that there could have been some sort of outside influence. But that's my opinion.

You are right, there is an outside influence. I did a lot of research into this on my own and in school and it is very clear.

Darwin himself said that if life is any more complex than some glob of plasm in a primordial soup of water and mud that got struck by lightning then his theory crumbles. That was around the mid-1800s. DNA was discovered in 1953 which shows a complexity beyond imagination. There is some evolution, meaning some change over time and minor mutations, but the natural selection process never has and never will explain origins.

 

[Scamrock]

You are right, there is an outside influence. I did a lot of research into this on my own and in school and it is very clear.

Darwin himself said that if life is any more complex than some glob of plasm in a primordial soup of water and mud that got struck by lightning then his theory crumbles. That was around the mid-1800s. DNA was discovered in 1953 which shows a complexity beyond imagination. There is some evolution, meaning some change over time and minor mutations, but the natural selection process never has and never will explain origins.

You should debate this with AronRa.