Being a reflex based fighter?

[ssullivan80]

Agree with the posters on reading the situation. That book, Outliers talks about how a pro tennis player has no better reflexes than a regular person. They've just spent so much time practicing returning serves that they read the situation much faster than a layman and have built up the coordination and physical capability.

Mind you it's interesting why Tyson was developed to be reactive. His natural power and explosiveness probably lent itself well for that strategy. Lomo doesn't seem to have the natural pop and so had to go a different route.

Reactive reflexes can be trained, as you mention. It's simply a matter of ingraining the reaction through muscle memory, i.e - repetition (drills, pad work, etc). What's tricky with combat sports is that the "natural" reaction is most often contradictory to the "desired" reaction. Instinctively when something is being hurled at your face you'll most likely pull back and away, flinch or close your eyes, cover up and retreat, etc.... The reason IMO that combat sports require so much constant repetitive training is that not only are you having to learn dynamic movements but you're having to learn to retrain your natural instinctive reaction as well. I don't for one second believe that anyone has a natural inclination to intentionally stand in front of something or someone that is attacking them and remain composed. One of the most impressive examples I recall is when Travis Luter was sitting on Anderson Silva's chest and trying to pound him out. Anderson literally watched every single shot the whole way through without so much as flinching or blinking an eye, that's composure!

As for Tyson, I think aries description of MT being "proactive" is a more accurate portrayal. D'amato system (peakaboo) was truly tailor made for Tyson because of his naturally aggressive nature. Add to that his ridiculous punching power, athleticism and explosiveness he was able to pressure and overwhelm his opponents. Tyson's opponents had about a 0% margin of error in the first 3 rds, you fuck up once and your staring at the ceiling. The issue was that all those attributes that made his style so effective (explosiveness, dynamic movement, constant pressure) required an immense amount of physical energy and the later in the rounds the fight went the greater that margin of error increased. Mike Tyson was the most difficult HW to *physically* defeat ever, IMO! Conversely, he was likely the easiest to beat mentally if you could survive long enough to do so.

Lomo (without a lengthy explanation) is essentially the opposite side of the same coin when compared to Tyson. Lomo's shortcoming IMO, is that he let's guys that he's clearly defeated stick around for longer than they should. It's not that Lomo doesn't have that natural "pop", on the contrary he absolutely does have the punching power to hurt guys and end fights. He just get's so relaxed he's effortlessly going through the motions. It's like being in a sparring session with a guy that you know is clearly no threat and grossly outmatched. You begin "playing around", taking it easy and trying to find ways to get creative in there......... But, for any of you who've been around long enough in the gym you know there's been (or will be) that time when you are "playing around" and all of sudden your shaking your head asking yourself "what the fuck was that"...... That's what I see Lomo doing and so far it hasn't got him in trouble because he's really that much better, but it certainly could (I.E: Anderson Silva!). But if you look at the fights Lomo had vs guys he felt threatened by, he did get them out of there.

 

[Paradigm]

Reflex seems like the way trainers train you. All the top fighters will tell you the same. They all say something along the lines of you can't stop to think, hinting at using your reflexes and just let your body go auto mode. If you have to think, you already lost.

That's why we do defensive drills, to train our reflexes. You can cover up but you're bound to get KO as you don't really block everything. It's fine in boxing with those big ass gloves. But in mma or bare knuckles, you're not going to block anything if you solely rely on "covering up".

Even "covering up" you're still relying on your reflexes. You cover up differently depending on the incoming attacks, head, body, hooks, straight etc.

If you talking about slipping vs blocking then that's a different discussion. But I think all fighters are reflex based. Punches are coming in at millisecond intervals, there's not enough time to think and react. It's all based upon reflexes. You do without thinking. Like if someone tries to lowblow you, your natural instinct is to cover up y our jewels. There's no going about it. Best way to "make you flinch".

Back to slipping vs blocking. They're both reflexes. I train Muay Thai, so we're more used to blocking than slipping. I couldn't block anything when I started. Now I block pretty much everything. It's reflexes. Especially when they're coming at your super fast. Afterwards, I'm amazed at myself for blocking so many punches in such a short time. 5-10 punches in 2-3 secs etc.

Recently, I started doing boxing and again I can't slip for shit. But I'm getting better. You just need to train it until it becomes 2nd nature. Everything we do in the gym is to train out reflexes and muscle memory. It kills me a little when I see a sloppy fighter. Makes you wonder what they're doing in the gym.

As for preference, it depends on the martial arts. Like I said, I trained MT and naturally I resort to blocking more than slipping. That's why I'm training boxing now so I can improve my head movements. MMA is very MT based. So you see a lot of MMA fighters resort to blocking as well. Boxers will use head movements more. The only time they block is when they can't move out of the way. Blocking should be last resort. It's better to slip and counter.

Which is ironic, since you still see guys rarely checking kicks. I'd wager it's down to not wanting to compromise their TDD and not having conditioned shins.

 

[freaky]

Which is ironic, since you still see guys rarely checking kicks. I'd wager it's down to not wanting to compromise their TDD and not having conditioned shins.

Exactly!! I can never understand why. It pisses me off so much!! I should also say MMA striking is a very watered down version of MT. It's like they only teach them how to strike but not how to defend.

I also think their shins are not conditioned either. It takes years to condition. But there's more than 1 way of defending against low kicks, like getting out of the way. I see none of that. The most I see is checking and even then it's some half ass ugly checks.

I don't think lifting up your leg will compromise your TDD especially if they're on the outside. IDK what they do in those MMA gyms but they need to start incorporating some leg kick defense in their programs.

 

[Uchi Mata]

You got the right idea. It spends a little more energy (a lot less than you would think if done right, which is to move very smoothly and very little) but makes up for it by enabling devastating counters (just from merely timing and angle, not even necessitating strength). It's a net gain of several hundred percent or more

Getting hit sucks up your cardio, and struggling while not being able to land anything solid eats up cardio unbelievably more (to where it's no comparison) than head movement and little step angles performed naturally.

Yeah, I don't notice much cardio impact myself, but I've also worked hard to really tighten up my head movement and footwork to move as little as possible. It seems that a lot of guys, when they first start actively trying to slip and evade rather than block, move WAY too much and end up tiring themselves out. It requires very little movement to slip a punch, generally only moving your head offline 6 inches or so.

TS, I think a lot of it is just practicing slips and pivots a great deal, so many people go hit the pads and just throw the same combos in a really rote way over and over, but if you make sure your trainer works in a lot of offense for you to evade while you're working the pads it'll help a lot. Personally I like my pad rounds to be at least as much about defense and movement as just hitting the mitts, I can spam combos on a heavy bag by myself but I need someone to throw back at me if I actually want to integrate my offense and defense. Make sure too that when you are shadowboxing and hitting the bag that you're working in a lot of head movement and angles and visualizing punches coming back at you as much as possible. And when you're sparring, take some rounds where you worry less about offense and just watch/read your opponent to see how quickly you're picking up on what's coming. Really great defensive fights are adept at carefully watching their opponents at all times and not getting so focused on their offense that they stop reading. Berto talks about Floyd doing it here, it's something to work on:

 

[Uchi Mata]

Which is ironic, since you still see guys rarely checking kicks. I'd wager it's down to not wanting to compromise their TDD and not having conditioned shins.

I don't think MMA striking is really that Muay Thai based. You really see very few guys using Muay Thai stances, throwing a lot of body kicks, teeps, or really engaging in a MT style clinch (the clinch in typically a lot more wrestling based). There are guys like Matt Brown who will use more Thai style knees and elbows, Tom Duquesnoy is a great prospect who has more of a MT clinch style as well, but I'd say what most MMA striking really is is Dutch KB with somewhat more of a boxing focus. Some of that is appropriate (spamming roundhouses to the body in MMA like you can in MT is super risky), but the lack of sophisticated clinch striking is just a damn shame. I think ONE FC will probably lead the UFC on seeing more trad MT being used just because of its proximity to Thailand and the small influx of converted Nak Muay they're already seeing.

 

[RichardN7]

Anyone else fight like this? I know the basic defence of blocking punches with your hands up to your face. But I instinctively feel more comfortable moving out of punches way by either moving my feet and getting out of range, or slipping and dipping my head more than just covering up. I find this more effective because even if you block punches with your gloves, you still take the impact. The only downside I feel is it takes much more cardio to do this. Anyone fight like this? And any tips on improving this style?

I much prefer movement and slipping to blocking.
One of the reasons I dislike kickboxers like RvR and Holzken is their high guard. Static, stand n bang style. Like apes. No sophistication.
I'm usually the taller guy when sparring and fight on the counter. Guy rushes forward, I meet him with a cross and slip out at an angle.
I do get tired before the other guy, but if it were a real fight, he'd probably be in a way worse way than me at the end.

 

[ARIZE]

Static, stand n bang style. Like apes. No sophistication.

That's not a very nice thing to say...some of us use that style and enjoy doing so...some of us may even have success with it...

 

[RichardN7]

That's not a very nice thing to say...some of us use that style and enjoy doing so...some of us may even have success with it...

Sorry xD
I just don't like it haahahaha

 

[roventu]

i prefer movement as well, but i always think that there are moments where i shouldve blocked. of course, you should use both. everyone has their natural inclinations, and thats actually a bad thing when it becomes a pattern. just like how a jab-cross can bring up a high guard, so you go for the hook to the liver, same thing happens when I notice my sparring partner always slips right then rolls, either catch him with a headkick on the slip or catch him with a hook at the end of the roll.

the blocking patterns are just more visually obvious, but the slip patterns are always there. what's worse is slipping into the direction of an opponent's strike is much more dangerous than blocking.

 

[DoctorTaco]

That's not a very nice thing to say...some of us use that style and enjoy doing so...some of us may even have success with it...

as
A boxers boxer, those guys give me the most trouble

 

[ARIZE]

@DoctorTaco

Care to explain it a bit more? I know the paper/rock/scissor rule in boxing, but am not sure why it's that way. I have read some articles about it, but wasn't really convinced (and probably fell asleep in the middle since it's about boxing...)
The few times i have spared in boxing (against boxers, not just MT people), i love to use heavy pressure. Hands glued to the chin, heavy defense with proactive movement (like ssullivan80 explained for Tyson), staying low, and once inside, play with short hooks and uppers.
And in my mind, it doesn't matter if he wants to stand and trade, or if i have to chase him and corner him, or if he's a counter fighter. I want my style to be effective against any style, without needing too much adjustments. I know how to do that in MT, and at my level in boxing I can make it work for now, but i know it's not the case against more experienced boxers...so i was curious if you could explain a bit...Thanks.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

I agree. But as far as being a fighter with great "reflexive" ability I think you've got to differentiate between being reactive vs reactionary. Lomo and Tyson make good examples for this. MTyson is a fighter I would call reactive - in short, his head movement, level changing, etc is basically "pre programmed". He's not necessarily reacting specifically to the opponents offense. He comes forward and uses pre designed movements to make his opponent miss and once they do he attacks. Lomo on the other hand I would call a reactionary fighter, not that he isn't using consistent movement, but instead he reacts specifically to the shot being thrown at him and defends/counters accordingly. Both methods are effective, but a reactionary fighter is by design going to expend much less energy than a reactive fighter. This is a discussion that could easily take up pages of lengthy explanation. But the idea being that some guys simply have better reflexive abilities (IMO, it's more genetic than it is trainable) and therefore are more apt to be reactionary vs. other fighters who don't have the same reflexive ability are going to have to rely more on being reactive and using pre designed movements to make their opponents miss and then countering off those misses. What you'll find true about fighters considered to be the most dangerous counterpunchers is the ability to be explosive (fast twitch) along with being either reactive or reactionary. I.E: Mike Tyson was "reactive" and explosive vs Roy Jones Jr was "reactionary" and explosive.

I like this post, but do you think that reactive and proactive would be better terms to use?

 

[ssullivan80]

I like this post, but do you think that reactive and proactive would be better terms to use?

I think reactive and proactive is a more accurate portrayal, so yes (thanks aries). A good way to think of it is that boxing (striking) is essentially a series of rhythmic movements. I.E: learning to hit the speed bag is about timing and cadence and finding a rhythmic pace (ba.ba.bop.ba.ba.bop....etc). That's an example of "reacting" proactively vs. getting into a rhythm on the double end bag then catching it off camber (breaking the cadence) and being able to instantly make an adjustment and get back into the rhythm is a better example of being instinctively "reactionary". Boxing is very similar to dance in this respect, it's often learned and taught in a choreographed manner. So in the same respect a technically trained professional ballet dancer can perform choreographed movements flawlessly, but not all of them can perform at that same level with a live symphony or orchestra as they don't possess the instinctively ability to be reactionary. To note, Vasyl Lomochenko's father (trainer) actually took him out of boxing and put him on the Ukrainian dance team for several years before coming back to boxing. He then told Lomo "now you have footwork". Shit worked!

Here ya go, this clip should help summarize/explain. Oh, and that kid in the video (8-9yrs old).... that's perfect form! his pivot, shadowboxing and on the heavy bag.... notice how controlled his posture is and how effortless he makes it look.

 

[Paradigm]

I don't think MMA striking is really that Muay Thai based. You really see very few guys using Muay Thai stances, throwing a lot of body kicks, teeps, or really engaging in a MT style clinch (the clinch in typically a lot more wrestling based). There are guys like Matt Brown who will use more Thai style knees and elbows, Tom Duquesnoy is a great prospect who has more of a MT clinch style as well, but I'd say what most MMA striking really is is Dutch KB with somewhat more of a boxing focus. Some of that is appropriate (spamming roundhouses to the body in MMA like you can in MT is super risky), but the lack of sophisticated clinch striking is just a damn shame. I think ONE FC will probably lead the UFC on seeing more trad MT being used just because of its proximity to Thailand and the small influx of converted Nak Muay they're already seeing.

Doesn't just have to be body kicks...MMA guys can kick arms also. Harder to defend and since much of MMA striking is punch based, this is kinda the same concept as investing in body punches for later rounds, except you're hoping to wear down his punch offense at the risk of a TD. I guess more people are comfortable with using grappling to make the arms heavy instead of using damage...prob the safer route.

There's also nothing to say you can't teep legs, upper chest or faces...hardest to catch. One you can establish a teep, follow up with a question mark kick. Could be just that MMA guys aren't creative kickers because most won't take the risk of ending up on their back, unless they are comfortable there like Cerrone.

Also, lots of MMA fighters suck at kicking. I always laugh, knowing that I have better kicks than some pro fighters.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Doesn't just have to be body kicks...MMA guys can kick arms also. Harder to defend and since much of MMA striking is punch based, this is kinda the same concept as investing in body punches for later rounds, except you're hoping to wear down his punch offense at the risk of a TD. I guess more people are comfortable with using grappling to make the arms heavy instead of using damage...prob the safer route.

There's also nothing to say you can't teep legs, upper chest or faces...hardest to catch. One you can establish a teep, follow up with a question mark kick. Could be just that MMA guys aren't creative kickers because most won't take the risk of ending up on their back, unless they are comfortable there like Cerrone.

Also, lots of MMA fighters suck at kicking. I always laugh, knowing that I have better kicks than some pro fighters.

I think the main reason you don't see more guys kick in MMA is that they don't really have any setups for their kicks to diminish the takedown chances. How many times have you seen even guys with supposedly good KB in MMA throw low kicks with no setups against advancing opponents? I think back to the GSP - Alves fight where Thiago was supposed to be this slick striker and he just came out and threw low kicks with no setup and got taken down off them repeatedly. At least guys like Aldo and RDA generally try to put their opponents on the retreat before kicking, and Aldo has a pretty decent repertoire of Dutch style setups. But the day I see someone clinch up, throw a knee and an elbow, push off, and throw a low kick off the clinch exit it'll be a first.

 

[Paradigm]

I think the main reason you don't see more guys kick in MMA is that they don't really have any setups for their kicks to diminish the takedown chances. How many times have you seen even guys with supposedly good KB in MMA throw low kicks with no setups against advancing opponents? I think back to the GSP - Alves fight where Thiago was supposed to be this slick striker and he just came out and threw low kicks with no setup and got taken down off them repeatedly. At least guys like Aldo and RDA generally try to put their opponents on the retreat before kicking, and Aldo has a pretty decent repertoire of Dutch style setups. But the day I see someone clinch up, throw a knee and an elbow, push off, and throw a low kick off the clinch exit it'll be a first.

Isn't that more of shitty fight IQ and a lack of skillset rather than an indictment on using MT in MMA?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Isn't that more of shitty fight IQ and a lack of skillset rather than an indictment on using MT in MMA?

Yes, absolutely. That was what I was trying to say, sorry if I was unclear. I think a lot of pure MT strategies can work in spots in MMA, you just don't have people who A. have that skillset and B. want to fight that way. Most MMA in American implicitly comes from a wrestling/grappling or Dutch/K1 KB base, in the sense that most of the head coaches come from those disciplines and that's how they teach people to fight. I can't think of any prominent head coaches who have really deep traditional Muay Thai backgrounds (Rafael Cordeiro maybe?). The meta game just doesn't include much in the way of trad Nak Muay strategies, though I think that's probably just a matter of time. If I had to pick any area of MMA that I thought was ripe for serious change in how people approach it in the near future, it would be the clinch and I think the most likely direction of change is moving away from using such a wrestling focused clinch and using much more of a MT, striking oriented clinch.

Funny thing, the only guy I can think of who uses a pseudo-MT strategy consistently is a guy with as far as I know no traditional Muay Thai training: Jon Jones. Not saying he fights like a Nak Muay, but if you watch his game it's primarily kicks at distance, limited punching, lots of elbow, knees, and upper body throws from the clinch, and a long guard. The technical repertoire he uses is not MT at all but the notion of using your length to keep guys off you with kicks and a long guard and then instead of staying in punching range immediately closing the distance all the way to the clinch from which you strike and dump more so than wrestle is very much a MT strategy. Just a thought I've been kicking around.

 

[a guy]

Yes, absolutely. That was what I was trying to say, sorry if I was unclear. I think a lot of pure MT strategies can work in spots in MMA, you just don't have people who A. have that skillset and B. want to fight that way. Most MMA in American implicitly comes from a wrestling/grappling or Dutch/K1 KB base, in the sense that most of the head coaches come from those disciplines and that's how they teach people to fight. I can't think of any prominent head coaches who have really deep traditional Muay Thai backgrounds (Rafael Cordeiro maybe?). The meta game just doesn't include much in the way of trad Nak Muay strategies, though I think that's probably just a matter of time. If I had to pick any area of MMA that I thought was ripe for serious change in how people approach it in the near future, it would be the clinch and I think the most likely direction of change is moving away from using such a wrestling focused clinch and using much more of a MT, striking oriented clinch.

Funny thing, the only guy I can think of who uses a pseudo-MT strategy consistently is a guy with as far as I know no traditional Muay Thai training: Jon Jones. Not saying he fights like a Nak Muay, but if you watch his game it's primarily kicks at distance, limited punching, lots of elbow, knees, and upper body throws from the clinch, and a long guard. The technical repertoire he uses is not MT at all but the notion of using your length to keep guys off you with kicks and a long guard and then instead of staying in punching range immediately closing the distance all the way to the clinch from which you strike and dump more so than wrestle is very much a MT strategy. Just a thought I've been kicking around.

Interestingly, by far the two best clinch strikers in MMA are also two of the best wrestlers: Jones and Mighty Mouse. You can't use a striking oriented clinch without a certain degree of wrestling skill.

 

[Paradigm]

Yes, absolutely. That was what I was trying to say, sorry if I was unclear. I think a lot of pure MT strategies can work in spots in MMA, you just don't have people who A. have that skillset and B. want to fight that way. Most MMA in American implicitly comes from a wrestling/grappling or Dutch/K1 KB base, in the sense that most of the head coaches come from those disciplines and that's how they teach people to fight. I can't think of any prominent head coaches who have really deep traditional Muay Thai backgrounds (Rafael Cordeiro maybe?). The meta game just doesn't include much in the way of trad Nak Muay strategies, though I think that's probably just a matter of time. If I had to pick any area of MMA that I thought was ripe for serious change in how people approach it in the near future, it would be the clinch and I think the most likely direction of change is moving away from using such a wrestling focused clinch and using much more of a MT, striking oriented clinch.

Funny thing, the only guy I can think of who uses a pseudo-MT strategy consistently is a guy with as far as I know no traditional Muay Thai training: Jon Jones. Not saying he fights like a Nak Muay, but if you watch his game it's primarily kicks at distance, limited punching, lots of elbow, knees, and upper body throws from the clinch, and a long guard. The technical repertoire he uses is not MT at all but the notion of using your length to keep guys off you with kicks and a long guard and then instead of staying in punching range immediately closing the distance all the way to the clinch from which you strike and dump more so than wrestle is very much a MT strategy. Just a thought I've been kicking around.

I wouldn't even lump Cordeiro into that category. "Brazilian MT" originally came from TKD artists and Cordeiro himself had never even been to Thailand until last year.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Interestingly, by far the two best clinch strikers in MMA are also two of the best wrestlers: Jones and Mighty Mouse. You can't use a striking oriented clinch without a certain degree of wrestling skill.

I agree with you. The Thais are excellent upper body wrestlers, and the original dirty boxers like Lindland and Randy were obviously exceptionally good upper body wrestlers. Nak Muay probably don't get the credit they should in the West for their upper body wrestling since so much of it looks odd as it occurs at a distance rather than in a chest to chest or head to head clinch (since they're looking to strike the positions they aim for are very different than a GR guy), but it's no easy task to get good upper body position on a skilled MT fighter.