Being a reflex based fighter?

[Eli1015]

Anyone else fight like this? I know the basic defence of blocking punches with your hands up to your face. But I instinctively feel more comfortable moving out of punches way by either moving my feet and getting out of range, or slipping and dipping my head more than just covering up. I find this more effective because even if you block punches with your gloves, you still take the impact. The only downside I feel is it takes much more cardio to do this. Anyone fight like this? And any tips on improving this style?

 

[Fire of Youth]

It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both blocking and evasion.

 

[Eli1015]

It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both blocking and evasion.

True but I see alot of fighters prefer one over the other in my expierence you got the guys who always use the high guard and put there gloves up and block. And the guys who slip all punches and try to counter.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Start with the simple safe method you're using now and ease into the more advanced stuff (don't rush for obvious reasons)

It isn't "reflexes," it's perception/intelligence. Action movies have brainwashed everyone into thinking that high level reflexes are what wins fights but if that was true, 18 year olds would be winning all the fights in competitions. It's a misconception for/from people who don't fight.

Perception + Experience, perfected piece by piece and applied intelligently looks to your average person to = amazing genetic attributes. Don't be a fool and fall for that baloney or go ahead and do exactly that, it's your life.

There are people who rely on their natural superior reflexes and athleticism for their fight style, and those people don't stay good for long-- they can't keep doing that year after year, it burns out quickly. Much better just to do it the right way (the technical way) and stay good into your middle years (why not?) while being even more effective than otherwise.

 

[busybroker]

Its okay, I think head movement is superior, specially in mma, but like you say it drains more cardio if done continuously.

So the right thing to do is to counter attack with every head movement, so you disrupt the opponent attack and it turn to defensive mode where you can go forward.

For example, for a opponent jab, you can move your head to de right and at the same time throw another jab and when it lands, capitalize with a cross.

Only evading is incomplete in my opinion

 

[PivotPunch]

Start with the simple safe method you're using now and ease into the more advanced stuff (don't rush for obvious reasons)

It isn't "reflexes," it's perception/intelligence. Action movies have brainwashed everyone into thinking that high level reflexes are what wins fights but if that was true, 18 year olds would be winning all the fights in competitions. It's a misconception for/from people who don't fight.

Perception + Experience, perfected piece by piece and applied intelligently looks to your average person to = amazing genetic attributes. Don't be a fool and fall for that baloney or go ahead and do exactly that, it's your life.

There are people who rely on their natural superior reflexes and athleticism for their fight style, and those people don't stay good for long-- they can't keep doing that year after year, it burns out quickly. Much better just to do it the right way (the technical way) and stay good into your middle years (why not?) while being even more effective than otherwise.

This

You don't have to have great reflexes for that. James Toney could slip punches and counter with his hands down as a fat old and brain damaged HW. Mike McCallum, Hopkins, Mayweather and others.

Reflexes are great but you can also slip punches like that even at an old age and past your prime if you build on your talent by adding, timing, anticipation, good defensive habits and other stuff experience brings.

These guys were able to do that at an old age while someone like Roy Jones or Ali wasn't. Also using skill to defend like that means you use up less energy there is a reason these guys I listed don't get tired usually even at an old age.

Especially Hopkins who during the last years of his career threw like 10 punches per round because he wasn't as fit as he used to be but even at that age while not coming close to winning still survived 12 rounds against Sergey kovalev who was knocking out everyone at 50 years of age and completely outgunned physically.

These guys are proof that you don't have to rely on athleticism to fight like that even if athleticism always helps

 

[Eli1015]

Start with the simple safe method you're using now and ease into the more advanced stuff (don't rush for obvious reasons)

It isn't "reflexes," it's perception/intelligence. Action movies have brainwashed everyone into thinking that high level reflexes are what wins fights but if that was true, 18 year olds would be winning all the fights in competitions. It's a misconception for/from people who don't fight.

Perception + Experience, perfected piece by piece and applied intelligently looks to your average person to = amazing genetic attributes. Don't be a fool and fall for that baloney or go ahead and do exactly that, it's your life.

There are people who rely on their natural superior reflexes and athleticism for their fight style, and those people don't stay good for long-- they can't keep doing that year after year, it burns out quickly. Much better just to do it the right way (the technical way) and stay good into your middle years (why not?) while being even more effective than otherwise.

I agree it's perception and expierence, but to say reflexis isn't what it is seems false. I see guys who just don't have the reflxes to slip and move there head away from punches. They just seem way to slow and there brains don't register the punches until it's too late.

 

[aries]

True but I see alot of fighters prefer one over the other in my expierence you got the guys who always use the high guard and put there gloves up and block. And the guys who slip all punches and try to counter.

Have a look at Lomachenko, he does both. He slips while keeping his hands up high. Best of both worlds that way. But it's hard to do it that way (because you have more mass to move at the end of the lever) and takes a lot of discipline. Mike Tyson did it to an extent as well but he kept his hands lower nearer his chin.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I agree it's perception and expierence, but to say reflexis isn't what it is seems false. I see guys who just don't have the reflxes to slip and move there head away from punches. They just seem way to slow and there brains don't register the punches until it's too late.

Those guys who cant slip are called : "EVERYONE"

The reason they can't do it is because 1) they are untrained/unaccustomed and 2) if they are partly trained, they are thinking of it the wrong way-- they're thinking of it like its about twitchy "reflexes" rather than smooth, practiced and deliberate technical movement.

Like you, they're stuck believing what they were taught by action movies (technical fighting = reflexes), their egos won't let them fathom that their original preconceptions could have been 100% wrong. They can't imagine that what they are doing/practicing isn't already "mostly right." This is why most people plateau early and just can't pass a certain low level of skill no matter how many pointless repetitions they might do.

If you think of it wrong, you will do it wrong. It's up to you

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Its okay, I think head movement is superior, specially in mma, but like you say it drains more cardio if done continuously.

So the right thing to do is to counter attack with every head movement, so you disrupt the opponent attack and it turn to defensive mode where you can go forward.

For example, for a opponent jab, you can move your head to de right and at the same time throw another jab and when it lands, capitalize with a cross.

Only evading is incomplete in my opinion

You got the right idea. It spends a little more energy (a lot less than you would think if done right, which is to move very smoothly and very little) but makes up for it by enabling devastating counters (just from merely timing and angle, not even necessitating strength). It's a net gain of several hundred percent or more

Getting hit sucks up your cardio, and struggling while not being able to land anything solid eats up cardio unbelievably more (to where it's no comparison) than head movement and little step angles performed naturally.

 

[exclamatio]

Anyone else fight like this? I know the basic defence of blocking punches with your hands up to your face. But I instinctively feel more comfortable moving out of punches way by either moving my feet and getting out of range, or slipping and dipping my head more than just covering up. I find this more effective because even if you block punches with your gloves, you still take the impact. The only downside I feel is it takes much more cardio to do this. Anyone fight like this? And any tips on improving this style?

Aye, me! I'm allergic to pain, much prefer to dodge.

Blocking a shot is good, making them miss is better.

Great advice already posted. I'd just add to spar often and spar light. Get your movements comfortable and smooth. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[ARIZE]

It's time for me to sound like a douche once again... But i think that most of the answers miss the point that heavy defense, is also based on reflex. It's just a different type of response to an attack. But i still need good reflex to block a shot. To recognize what kind of attack is coming, and properly block it.

You either block, you either evade, you either counter. But all of them need good reflexes. It's just that those reflexes are conditioned to have a different response to the same cue. I think that for the counter you need more speed/reflex/timing than the other 2, but between evasion and block, i am not sure there is a big difference in reflexes needed...

Also, (another personal opinion) i put martial arts/combat sports in 3 big categories.

-Arts/sports which the main kind of defense is blocking, like MT. (yes obviously some guys use evasion or counter in MT too, but its not the majority, don't need to break my balls you know who...)

-Arts/sports which you find frequently different types of defense (heavy block, evade, counter). I put boxing in that category.

-Arts/sports which the main kind of defense is evasion/counter like TKD.

So to improve an elusive style, you should base your training on those arts in which this type of defense is common. (If you just want to be good at fighting, just train MT...)

 

[freaky]

Reflex seems like the way trainers train you. All the top fighters will tell you the same. They all say something along the lines of you can't stop to think, hinting at using your reflexes and just let your body go auto mode. If you have to think, you already lost.

That's why we do defensive drills, to train our reflexes. You can cover up but you're bound to get KO as you don't really block everything. It's fine in boxing with those big ass gloves. But in mma or bare knuckles, you're not going to block anything if you solely rely on "covering up".

Even "covering up" you're still relying on your reflexes. You cover up differently depending on the incoming attacks, head, body, hooks, straight etc.

If you talking about slipping vs blocking then that's a different discussion. But I think all fighters are reflex based. Punches are coming in at millisecond intervals, there's not enough time to think and react. It's all based upon reflexes. You do without thinking. Like if someone tries to lowblow you, your natural instinct is to cover up y our jewels. There's no going about it. Best way to "make you flinch".

Back to slipping vs blocking. They're both reflexes. I train Muay Thai, so we're more used to blocking than slipping. I couldn't block anything when I started. Now I block pretty much everything. It's reflexes. Especially when they're coming at your super fast. Afterwards, I'm amazed at myself for blocking so many punches in such a short time. 5-10 punches in 2-3 secs etc.

Recently, I started doing boxing and again I can't slip for shit. But I'm getting better. You just need to train it until it becomes 2nd nature. Everything we do in the gym is to train out reflexes and muscle memory. It kills me a little when I see a sloppy fighter. Makes you wonder what they're doing in the gym.

As for preference, it depends on the martial arts. Like I said, I trained MT and naturally I resort to blocking more than slipping. That's why I'm training boxing now so I can improve my head movements. MMA is very MT based. So you see a lot of MMA fighters resort to blocking as well. Boxers will use head movements more. The only time they block is when they can't move out of the way. Blocking should be last resort. It's better to slip and counter.

 

[bobthebuilder]

Anyone else fight like this? I know the basic defence of blocking punches with your hands up to your face. But I instinctively feel more comfortable moving out of punches way by either moving my feet and getting out of range, or slipping and dipping my head more than just covering up. I find this more effective because even if you block punches with your gloves, you still take the impact. The only downside I feel is it takes much more cardio to do this. Anyone fight like this? And any tips on improving this style?

slipping and rolling punches consistently for several rounds is tiring, but you don't need to be advanced to start

 

[CFGroup]

Good thread so far!

From my evasion/counter based foundation I purposely trained in close and shielded to sharpen my ability to neutralize pressure.

There's a whole new skill in that range if you commit to training it.

Reading opponents body movement is a skill that needs to be trained at any distance and when internalized to subconscious reaction looks like reflex based movement.

 

[DoctorTaco]

You need rounds and rounds of experience to get sharper at reading your opponents. Floyd knows what someone is about to throw before they do because he focuses on that aspect of his training.

Get a lot of rounds in moving around with guys. Light, playful sparring to upgrade your computer to see/process what's coming without the risk of getting mollywhopped.

 

[ssullivan80]

Have a look at Lomachenko, he does both. He slips while keeping his hands up high. Best of both worlds that way. But it's hard to do it that way (because you have more mass to move at the end of the lever) and takes a lot of discipline. Mike Tyson did it to an extent as well but he kept his hands lower nearer his chin.

I agree. But as far as being a fighter with great "reflexive" ability I think you've got to differentiate between being reactive vs reactionary. Lomo and Tyson make good examples for this. MTyson is a fighter I would call reactive - in short, his head movement, level changing, etc is basically "pre programmed". He's not necessarily reacting specifically to the opponents offense. He comes forward and uses pre designed movements to make his opponent miss and once they do he attacks. Lomo on the other hand I would call a reactionary fighter, not that he isn't using consistent movement, but instead he reacts specifically to the shot being thrown at him and defends/counters accordingly. Both methods are effective, but a reactionary fighter is by design going to expend much less energy than a reactive fighter. This is a discussion that could easily take up pages of lengthy explanation. But the idea being that some guys simply have better reflexive abilities (IMO, it's more genetic than it is trainable) and therefore are more apt to be reactionary vs. other fighters who don't have the same reflexive ability are going to have to rely more on being reactive and using pre designed movements to make their opponents miss and then countering off those misses. What you'll find true about fighters considered to be the most dangerous counterpunchers is the ability to be explosive (fast twitch) along with being either reactive or reactionary. I.E: Mike Tyson was "reactive" and explosive vs Roy Jones Jr was "reactionary" and explosive.

 

[aries]

I agree. But as far as being a fighter with great "reflexive" ability I think you've got to differentiate between being reactive vs reactionary. Lomo and Tyson make good examples for this. MTyson is a fighter I would call reactive - in short, his head movement, level changing, etc is basically "pre programmed". He's not necessarily reacting specifically to the opponents offense. He comes forward and uses pre designed movements to make his opponent miss and once they do he attacks. Lomo on the other hand I would call a reactionary fighter, not that he isn't using consistent movement, but instead he reacts specifically to the shot being thrown at him and defends/counters accordingly. Both methods are effective, but a reactionary fighter is by design going to expend much less energy than a reactive fighter. This is a discussion that could easily take up pages of lengthy explanation. But the idea being that some guys simply have better reflexive abilities (IMO, it's more genetic than it is trainable) and therefore are more apt to be reactionary vs. other fighters who don't have the same reflexive ability are going to have to rely more on being reactive and using pre designed movements to make their opponents miss and then countering off those misses. What you'll find true about fighters considered to be the most dangerous counterpunchers is the ability to be explosive (fast twitch) along with being either reactive or reactionary. I.E: Mike Tyson was "reactive" and explosive vs Roy Jones Jr was "reactionary" and explosive.

Yeah good distinction between the two. I guess you could say one uses their head movement in a proactive manner and the other as you say is reactive.

 

[ssullivan80]

I guess you could say one uses their head movement in a proactive manner and the other as you say is reactive.

Exactly!

 

[Inquisitus]

Agree with the posters on reading the situation. That book, Outliers talks about how a pro tennis player has no better reflexes than a regular person. They've just spent so much time practicing returning serves that they read the situation much faster than a layman and have built up the coordination and physical capability.

Mind you it's interesting why Tyson was developed to be reactive. His natural power and explosiveness probably lent itself well for that strategy. Lomo doesn't seem to have the natural pop and so had to go a different route.