American Atheists President David Silverman Fired For Sexual Assault

[Gutter Chris]

You're stepping out of line by telling people how they should feel about their country and how they should show it. I'm sure I have done that at times myself. It's not right.

Yea im telling you take some pride in your country and strop feeding into a negative liberal stereotype and i dont feel out of line or bad about it in the slightest

 

[Fawlty]

Wow thats rather negative

Its not indoctrination its initiation

The sense of community and belonging starts early and continues til you die . think school shootings and why people feel so lonely and depressed. Think why everyone wants to fight to keep everyone else down instead of fighting for all of us to rise with things like wages and healthcare and a safety net . People are isolated and dont believe in a bigger community and so they dont see the picture past themselves any longer or think like we are all one tribe.

So we are clear I dont think saying the pledge will cure that as it is just one thing and it takes much more than that to build a strong community but is a great foundation stone. We are americans , this is our country , these are our brothers and go from there. If church isnt going to be where americans go for sense of community and belonging any more they really are going to need to strengthen the ties of community in other ways



I really could not disagree with your assessment more

I think you are looking at it like pledging to some object and abstract idea and I am looking at it like that object symbolizes our ties to one another and our sense of belonging

Indoctrination/initiation is a dubious distinction here. It is what it is- people being compelled to worship abstract symbols, in most cases before critical thinking skills have developed and with only very limited information about the object of worship. Clear brainwashing. We need to be honest and say "We want our children brainwashed in this area, because we think it will help them."

Kids will see the flag. They can't avoid it. It's in our media and on our buildings, etc. We have a very interesting founding story and a dramatic, twisted national past that is by itself, as the truth of what our country is, the thing that kids will need to evaluate when they grow older. Let's not deny them that opportunity by fucking up their heads with patriotism.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Perhaps. I would not care to speculate about intellect. I imagine though that the underlying reasons they choose to congregate are more or less the same reasons that people in other religions congregate. Allowing of course some leeway for the fascination with the 'new'

Humans have a need to 'find meaning' in things. And once they find some, they look for yet more. Which is why ironically many atheist organizations are now looking towards codifying their belief system with 'commandments'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatives_to_the_Ten_Commandments

I have no problem with the idea in and of itself. I just wish people could look at the merits of the principles on their own face as opposed to assigning them to a 'larger source'. Here are some of my favorite rules to live by for example:

Don't give unsolicited advice.
Show people respect, particularly when in their home.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Don't kill animals unless you are attacked or for food or shelter.
Don't bother people. If people bother you, ask them to stop. If they don't, kick their ass.
Don't harm young children

For what its worth- those are 6 of the 11 Satanic rules of the earth.

I agree in one way and disagree in another.

To torture an old analogy - the reason a bald man might buy lotion for his cue ball head may at some level be equivalent to the reason people with hair buy shampoo. But it's also fundamentally different. Analogy aside, the political coalition of religious ideologies obligates a similar gathering of those who vociferously oppose it.

As for the principles, I side with those who reject an atheist creed that goes beyond opposition to religion, simply because logically a lack of belief doesn't necessitate any consequent beliefs or morals. There are other laudable sources for that stuff.

 

[Fawlty]

Yea im telling you take some pride in your country and strop feeding into a negative liberal stereotype and i dont feel out of line or bad about it in the slightest

Are you sure you want to go down the road of instructing me about the pride I should have in my country? Let's see your credentials on that.

 

[Quequeg]

Yea im telling you take some pride in your country and strop feeding into a negative liberal stereotype and i dont feel out of line or bad about it in the slightest

"Patriotism the last refuge for a scoundrel"

 

[Gutter Chris]

Kids will see the flag. They can't avoid it. It's in our media and on our buildings, etc. We have a very interesting founding story and a dramatic, twisted national past that is by itself, as the truth what our country is, the thing that kids will need to evaluate when they grow older. Let's not deny them that opportunity by fucking up their heads with patriotism.

yea lets teach them america is an evil racist terror state and if they dont love it thats ok what could go wrong in a country full of people taught to hate the very place they live and the neighbors all around them. Sounds like a great way to stay stuck in the past and at each others throats . Progress !!

Indoctrination/initiation is a dubious distinction here. It is what it is- people being compelled to worship abstract symbols, in most cases before critical thinking skills have developed and with only very limited information about the object of worship. Clear brainwashing. We need to be honest and say "We want our children brainwashed in this area, because we think it will help them."

yea its not brain washing to say this is your country and you should love it and take care of it its yours.... its like teaching kids hygiene and manners or is that some form of cultural indoctrination as well ?

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Silverman at the Reason Rally getting the crowd to shout out Atheist along with him. Cringle level over 9000 (time stamped at 11:20):

 

[Gutter Chris]

"Patriotism the last refuge for a scoundrel"

Wow did you come up with that yourself .

i didnt not say we cant criticize or change the country I said this mother fucker is our country and we should take that more seriously and build stronger communities .

As i said that flag isnt a symbol of our government its a symbol of us and we should swear an oath to each other

 

[Quequeg]

Wow did you come up with that yourself .

i didnt not say we cant criticize or change the country I said this mother fucker is our country and we should take that more seriously and build stronger communities .

As i said that flag isnt a symbol of our government its a symbol of us and we should swear an oath to each other

Of course not, don't know what " means?

 

[Gutter Chris]

Are you sure you want to go down the road of instructing me about the pride I should have in my country? Let's see your credentials on that.

Are you really that big of a bitch?

 

[Fawlty]

yea lets teach them america is an evil racist terror state and if they dont love it thats ok what could go wrong in a country full of people taught to hate the very place they live and the neighbors all around them. Sounds like a great way to stay stuck in the past and at each others throats . Progress !!

I said nothing like that at all. Now you're just making shit up, and you should probably stop doing that, if you have the courage.

yea its not brain washing to say this is your country and you should love it and take care of it its yours.... its like teaching kids hygiene and manners or is that some form of cultural indoctrination as well ?

Hygiene is cultural indoctrination, of course. And it's pretty important. What does "love it" and "take care of it" mean, exactly? I mean exactly, exactly. It means things like keeping our environment clean, caring about our neighbors, defending it, etc. All the sorts of things that everyone tries to agree on. There is nothing about taking an oath to a cloth symbol that gets shit done. And compelling people to do it, who are not otherwise inclined to, is not defensible.

 

[cooks1]

I agree in one way and disagree in another.

To torture an old analogy - the reason a bald man might buy lotion for his cue ball head may at some level be equivalent to the reason people with hair buy shampoo. But it's also fundamentally different. Analogy aside, the political coalition of religious ideologies obligates a similar gathering of those who vociferously oppose it.

As for the principles, I side with those who reject an atheist creed that goes beyond opposition to religion, simply because logically a lack of belief doesn't necessitate any consequent beliefs or morals. There are other laudable sources for that stuff.

Fair points. But understand this. There would be no atheist organizations, not one, unless atheists wanted their 'lack of belief' to be every bit as significant and meaningful as a religious persons faith.

 

[Madmick]

As I said, Christians can forgive a man's sins...

...so long as he isn't a Democrat, a woman, black, a Republican man who said something mean about Trump once, or worst of all, Hillary Clinton.

 

[Fawlty]

Are you really that big of a bitch?

I'm just saying, you presume to tell me how I should show my love for my country. I'd like for you to provide some basis for that, some informative perspective, some experience you have had or some service you have done for your country that might justify you there. I think you have your neck out a little here.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Hygiene is cultural indoctrination, of course. And it's pretty important. What does "love it" and "take care of it" mean, exactly? I mean exactly, exactly. It means things like keeping our environment clean, caring about our neighbors, defending it, etc. All the sorts of things that everyone tries to agree on. There is nothing about taking an oath to a cloth symbol that gets shit done. And compelling people to do it, who are not otherwise inclined to, is not defensible.

Ya know its funny to me you accuse me of saying things you didnt say while doing just the same

I said to swear to the country and the people in it the cloth is just cloth and a bit of ceremony and I already also agreed that the under god part is wack

Why does the thought of people "indoctrinated" to serve each other make you so upset ? That flag is just the symbol the people in the room with you is who the oath is too .... Who is america ?

 

[cooks1]

See, this is why you attach yourself to atheism. You think it is gives you instant intellectual credibility. You are a caricature.

Neil Degrasse Tyson talked about this. He doesn't golf. And he doesn't spend time meeting with people who don't play golf so they can talk about how much they hate golf. Get a fuckin life.

You NEED atheism. You need something to attach your pathetic self to, to prop yourself up.

I am not necessarily agreeing with this. But supposing for a moment that it's true, how is that different than a person aligning themself with a particular faith?

 

[Gutter Chris]

I'm just saying, you presume to tell me how I should show my love for my country. I'd like for you to provide some basis for that, some informative perspective, some experience you have had or some service you have done for your country that might justify you there. I think you have your neck out a little here.

My basis is that I see a country divided and a symbol we can all unite around to fight our way to a better tomorrow and you seem to be getting really bent out of shape and bordering on wanting to go internet tough guy

I served my community by doing every kind of volunteer work possible and then some. I would have served further but sadly my mother made some bad decisions while pregnant that left me with a slight disability

Now go on and tell me bout your service so that I can respond by telling you I was more than likely doing more for our country working with real fucking poor people than you were while over seas doing whatever that was

 

[cooks1]

I'm just saying, you presume to tell me how I should show my love for my country. I'd like for you to provide some basis for that, some informative perspective, some experience you have had or some service you have done for your country that might justify you there. I think you have your neck out a little here.

I am beginning to agree. I think we may have a Starship Trooper up in here.

 

[Fawlty]

Ya know its funny to me you accuse me of saying things you didnt say while doing just the same

I said to swear to the country and the people in it the cloth is just cloth and a bit of ceremony and I already also agreed that the under god part is wack

Why does the thought of people "indoctrinated" to serve each other make you so upset ? That flag is just the symbol the people in the room with you is who the oath is too .... Who is america ?

Let's not confuse having strong views with being upset. You can scroll up if you want to see who is taking this convo more personally and getting frustrated by it.

I've stuck with argument against compelling any oath from any person. That's rightly reserved for specific public service jobs and also for the justice system, in which compelling people to an oath (and holding them to account for it) is defensible and probably necessary. Notice that I said in the reenlistment oath thread that I agree with punishing the people who made a mockery of it. It's for a specific and good reason, in the performance of extra-American service.

I think most shows of patriotism are a bad idea, but I have no desire to prevent people from waving their flags if they feel like they need to wave their flags. It's just that we would be better off with people who didn't need to wave flags, who are American out of a commitment that they have fully internalized and are secure about, such that they do not need to make a scene of it. I would encourage people not to wave the flag, but to cut out the shit and do the thing that the flag-waving is supposed to motivate us to do. I realize lots of people are not capable of that, or they get temporary enjoyment out of the pageantry.

If you're going to ask me who is America, I'm just going to say Allen Ginsberg and put on my flak vest. Or if I'm in a better mood, Paul Simon.

 

[Islam Imamate]

There is nothing about taking an oath to a cloth symbol that gets shit done. And compelling people to do it, who are not otherwise inclined to, is not defensible.

Who gets compelled to pledge for the flag though?

I am not necessarily agreeing with this. But supposing for a moment that it's true, how is that different than a person aligning themself with a particular faith?

A person who has faith because it gives them personal meaning and community is a way different. A person of faith who uses their religion to brow beat others and give themselves a sense of superiority is similar though.