You should have to work at walmart, without a college degree.

[klnOmega]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

Wont the corporations just buy off your one national Union?

 

[Aldo145]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

I got my GED and make 59k a year at a wastewater plant. Worked myself up the ladder. Granted i did have to go through their apprenticeship school.

 

[Fawlty]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

We should probably stop restricting the freedom of labor in favor of capital. You don't have to give people middle class wages out of high school, but you made a good point that unions being hostile to management is a bad idea. I don't think the solution to most issues lies in the "middle ground" paradigm, but for labor-management relations it needs to. Less bureaucracy from unions is good, more flexibility is necessary. But I also think people understand that a lot better than they did in the last generation, when labor got the shit kicked out of it. A national union is too inflexible by nature, and would just result in a gigantic stonewall bureaucracy imo.

What do you think of this blog post? http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/repairing-management-union-relationship.html.

 

[Bald1]

A high school diploma isn't average in today's world, it's below average. Everyone I know got either an university education or they trained and apprenticed in a trade. Education is a lot more important now, and the currency has been diluted, so you really have no chance to compete against the 90% applicants who are educated if you're not.

At the very least having any kind of a postsecondary diploma shows an ability and perhaps a desire to learn.

 

[Gandhi]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

A National Union would only have a benefit in that it could increase wage prices by imposing control over labor supply. It would increase wages and distort their value in relation to supply and demand. This would lower economic productivity. To make that work you would need to wall of the country economically or companies would outsource or people would buy cheaper foreign products. Getting rid of productivity enhancing trade would also hurt the economy. Poorer but more equal / share a smaller pie.

That’s the problem with all unions, minimum wage, all social instruments tied to employment. They fuck up the economy.

Just in case you think I am advocating boot strapism, I’m not. Let the market work and create wealth. Let the government through taxation and programs redistribute that wealth. No need to arbitrarily set prices, pick winners and losers, etc. Force the winners to help everyone else out and if they don’t like it they can move.

 

[wonderbread]

I don't understand your thread title.

You don't think people without a college degree can work hard and become successful?

What about trade schools, does that count as college in your eyes?

You want everyone given the same opportunities regardless of the knowledge or skills?

My Father owner a plumbing business here in NYC. Made over 300k a year. And that was only what he reported. No college and high school dropout.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

So you should spend more on domestic product so some high school pleb can benefit from showing no ambition or drive?

No, they are more useful in a social hierarchy system that gives people motivation to develop useful skills in today's market so the don't end up like those people. Think of it as putting heads on pike letting people know not to fuck with this land -- shit paying, no skill jobs and the people who work them are the heads on pikes for everyone else -- reminding us to not be like them.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

There's a massive shortage of skilled tradesmen in my city. Practically every trade needs replacements as more people are hitting 20 years in the union, ready to start retirement. And nobody is there to pick up the slack.

We have an opening for an upholsterer that cannot be filled. We need 2 more electricians, one kitchen tech, 1 hvac and 1 pool operator and none of these are being filled.

 

[Rod1]

Its been done, it is called 1940-1970's america, when everyone was an economic progressive, even republicans.

The main difference between that America and today's is the fiscal policy.

The very same thing you dismiss as a nothingburger. Also people were on average poorer back then.

 

[Rod1]

Minimum wage is more than enough for a middle class lifestyle if there was UHC, free schools, decent public transport and the such.

 

[jonharrison]

I’m going to have to agree with the other posters in this thread. The opportunities are out there, no one seems to take advantage of them. For example, at the airport I work at, there’s an A&P mechanic who I talk to quite a bit. He can’t find people to apprentice with him. No one applies when he puts notices out. Yet he only has a two year technical degree, makes conservatively $150k per year, and has more work than he can do. He can set his own hours, choose his own customers, etc. He also says that all the other A&P mechanics in the area are 60+ and will be retiring soon. Yet no one wants to do it. In addition, over summers in college I worked a factory job in town. Full time guys there make around $20 an hour, with 10-15 hrs of overtime every week. Of the only three recent high school grads who worked there, one failed a drug screening (meth) and was fired, the other just didn’t show up for a week, then got pissed when he was fired, and burned his bridges when leaving. The other one has a great job now, and recently bought a house in town. That factory is also always hiring, but recent high school grads from town don’t want to work there because of the 50hr weeks and random drug tests, so they stay content with McDonald’s or Walmart. It’s not due to lack of opportunity, but rather laziness.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

I thought this is what manufacting jobs generated.

You get a high school diploma, work at a factory and earn enough to buy a small house, buy a car, buy a tv. The problem is that the average lifestyle now demands a bigger house, 2 cars, and a tv in every room. The wages never caught up to that.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

We have to fly in a few guys from NYC to work on our chillers. Then they have to fly to Hawaii the next day.

Everyone is the trades that we bring in is old. There's hardly any younger guys. Our pay keeps getting higher and higher to keep us from moving out or retiring. The senior vice president of our company sat our entire shop down a month ago and asked us all what we wanted. We're getting two new work trucks, two new scissor lifts, one boom lift, one fork lift, a shitload of tools that we don't even need, and another pay raise... the 2nd pay raise we've had this year.

 

[Drenalin]

There is no guarantee that hard work will lead to success, but it increase your odds of moving up the social ladder. I know people that worked two jobs their entire lives that barely able to support their families. Similiarly, success is not exclusively tied to hard work, as you can be the laziest mofo on earth but can live comfortably through inheritance from your rich parents. We need to get rid of the notion that poor = lazy and rich = hard working.

As far as unions go, never had a pleasant experience with any of them both as a member or on the management side. Also, some unions are very tangled up with organized crime. In my city for example, the Hells Angels are known to belong to the dockworker's union. Essentially they're free to smuggle shit in and out of the country, and it's been going on for years.

I've hard many times that the local constructing unions here in Missouri are run by the mafia. My buddy who was in the laborers union said it's definitely true. Also I met a union boss one time & he was a big fat mafia looking guy sitting there puffing on a cigar like he was Al Capone

 

[Fox by the Sea]

thread sounds like a violent utopia

 

[Ice That Jaw]

My 2 cents, it's the "everyone must go to college" myth that needs to be destroyed.


An entire generation is burdened with 100k in debt, so that they can work 30k jobs. Meanwhile, they could have become electricians, plumbers, heating/cooling repair, and a host of other well paying jobs.

The kids who got business, fincance, medical, engineering, and government jobs are all working and making 65k+ on average.

It's almost like we as society have an obligation to educate kids on the importance of choosing your major. The whole "follow your passion" bullshit needs to end.

 

[Jkillah]

If you want to be paid more money, then you need to make people need you more. If you can be easily replaced by anyone, then you should expect to be paid near the bottom. Getting a high school diploma is extremely easy. It shouldn't be considered a significant achievement. If you haven't developed your skills beyond a high school student, then you are by definition a low skilled worker. Increase your skills whether it's through university, trade school, apprenticeship, work experience, or some other kind of method if you want to be paid more.

If you want to be doing better than you are now, then you should look to improve yourself rather than expect the world to just hand something to you. Nobody owes you anything for just existing. Also, if you live in an impoverished city where there are few job opportunities or the job opportunities don't match your skill set, it might be a good idea to relocate.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

Like many others I'm confused. Yes middle-class factory jobs are becoming harder to find and even the ones out there are going to a 2 tier system so that it will take you 5-7 years to make good money. It's less about evil corporations and more about globalization and the cost of benefits. My company spent a little over 22k for my insurance last year. That's $10/hr before they pay me a dime.

Trade schools and community college are a great alternative to college and will give you a better chance at a middle-class life. You can go to any community college and learn damned near anything you like for cheap.

Are you suggesting a single wage accross different types of jobs? Unions tend to unify under some similarity - teamsters, auto, usw, machinist, etc. I wouldn't think truckers and teachers share a lot of similar work concerns.

As a union member I've seen the good and bad. A union is only as good as its members are active and engaged. A national union just sounds like a whole lot of bad to be honest.

 

[RockstarChris]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

i am no longer eligible to be hired at walmart or sams club. after working there for 6 months they told me i can no longer wear flip flops to work so i just went home and never came back.

messing with my flip flops is where i draw the line. nobody puts baby in the corner without flip flops.

 

[usmctanker242]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

So basically you're a complete and utter idiot? If you only hear what you want to hear, regardless of what's being said to you, why do you even bother conversing with humans at all?