Yet re:another water cut thread

[Rubios]

The problem, if there is one (there is for me), isn’t weight cutting per se. We don’t see fighters at worrying levels of body fat, and we won’t, because it doesn’t make sense.
It’s the water cutting.

Getting rid of massive water cuts would be very easy and wouldn’t put any fight card at risk. They could do it tomorrow.
If they don’t, it’s because it seems like many people are interested in it. The “OMG he’s so massive,” how a fighter looks on the scale, the water-cut journey…

Personally, I’m convinced this zero-sum game worsens the quality of fights. You end up with two guys low on glycogen, slower reflexes, worse decision-making and a weaker chin.

 

[rear naked ankle pick]

What about fighters who dont live near water

 

[backlight]

Why do you hate Bruce Lee?

 

[Ozze]

You should elaborate on the "Getting rid of massive water cuts would be very easy and wouldn’t put any fight card at risk. They could do it tomorrow."

 

[Rubios]

You should elaborate on the "Getting rid of massive water cuts would be very easy and wouldn’t put any fight card at risk. They could do it tomorrow."

If cage weight is 10% higher, i.e., than the division limit, no purse and the fighter is mandated to compete at the upper weight class in his next fight.
10% is even high in my book. And the medical books. 7-8% would be the upper limit.

 

[CasualBot]

Been saying it for ten years.

Weight cuts need to go.

It's not hard to randomly weigh fighters the week of the fight, and then again on fight night.

The allowance would be relaxed if men stayed at their natural weight.

Heavier fights would be exciting again.

 

[Lord Grey]

Have fighters weigh in 2 days before, 1 day before, and day of. No one will be cutting weight 3 times in 3 days.

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

Great list of well meaning, yet terribly short sighted ideas here lol

Eyepokes, huge weight cuts, gym wars that age fighters prematurely....

None of these are going anywhere

 

[HuskySamoan]

Great list of well meaning, yet terribly short sighted ideas here lol

Eyepokes, huge weight cuts, gym wars that age fighters prematurely....

None of these are going anywhere

MMA gyms haven't figured out how to coach and develop fighters yet. They're largely awful at it, it's a big reason why Khabibs team does so well...they have very fleshed out styles, get fighters who start competing young who already have formative combat/martial arts backgrounds, have strict tried and true training regimen for strength and conditioning, have strong cross training networks with US based gyms etc.

This sounds long winded but a lot of MMA fighters dont spar enough, or even hard spar enough but when they do spar....theyre often times going hard kickboxing in a grappling pen filled with 12 other pairs of people sparring themselves and theres not much supervision or point to it. But then you flip that around to boxing and you'll often have gyms bring elite level guys and specific boxers to help prepare fighters for opponents in camp etc. Coaches are in both guys corners, its a very controlled, intentional environment but they do go very hard. This is literally the most important aspect of training fighters can do.

I think the weight cut is crazy too. Guys tank their immune systems when they cut 10-20lbs of water weight the week of and it's one major reason for pullouts...they get very sick. Youre also more prone to staph and all sorts of rashes when you weaken your immune system too. Its also a reason why fighters often need long camps, cant have quick turn arounds or take short notice fights. Paddy weighs 200lbs when he gets the call usually, Vinicius a Bantamweight said he gets up to 180lbs. But the issue with weight cutting is, people will try doing it even if its prohibited and just fight way too dehydrated and it will lead to deaths like Mancini vs Kim Duk Koo. Boxers cut weight too, its not as wide spread or extreme usually but Zurdo Ramirez used to weigh in at 175 and be over 200lbs in the ring.

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

MMA gyms haven't figured out how to coach and develop fighters yet. They're largely awful at it, it's a big reason why Khabibs team does so well...they have very fleshed out styles, get fighters who start competing young who already have formative combat/martial arts backgrounds, have strict tried and true training regimen for strength and conditioning, have strong cross training networks with US based gyms etc.

This sounds long winded but a lot of MMA fighters dont spar enough, or even hard spar enough but when they do spar....theyre often times going hard kickboxing in a grappling pen filled with 12 other pairs of people sparring themselves and theres not much supervision or point to it. But then you flip that around to boxing and you'll often have gyms bring elite level guys and specific boxers to help prepare fighters for opponents in camp etc. Coaches are in both guys corners, its a very controlled, intentional environment but they do go very hard. This is literally the most important aspect of training fighters can do.

I think the weight cut is crazy too. Guys tank their immune systems when they cut 10-20lbs of water weight the week of and it's one major reason for pullouts...they get very sick. Youre also more prone to staph and all sorts of rashes when you weaken your immune system too. Its also a reason why fighters often need long camps, cant have quick turn arounds or take short notice fights. Paddy weighs 200lbs when he gets the call usually, Vinicius a Bantamweight said he gets up to 180lbs. But the issue with weight cutting is, people will try doing it even if its prohibited and just fight way too dehydrated and it will lead to deaths like Mancini vs Kim Duk Koo. Boxers cut weight too, its not as wide spread or extreme usually but Zurdo Ramirez used to weigh in at 175 and be over 200lbs in the ring.

I think the worst trend atm is the amount of contender series swang and bangers they bring in, I know that's the style Dana always seemed the most thrilled with due to their appeal to the majority of casuals.

It's all well and good until there's a noticeable lack of capable north American talents who use both striking and grappling in tandem to win their fights.

Fluffy has been such a breath of fresh air in that regard, there's hardly any standout Americans compared to past years where they were still all over the top 15 rankings. I wonder how many of them still train shoot-boxing to sharpen transitions from striking to clinch to td.

Most of them like to kickbox behind a decent sprawl and some underhooks here and there.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I think the worst trend atm is the amount of contender series swang and bangers they bring in, I know that's the style Dana always seemed the most thrilled with due to their appeal to the majority of casuals.

It's all well and good until there's a noticeable lack of capable north American talents who use both striking and grappling in tandem to win their fights.

Fluffy has been such a breath of fresh air in that regard, there's hardly any standout Americans compared to past years where they were still all over the top 15 rankings. I wonder how many of them still train shoot-boxing to sharpen transitions from striking to clinch to td.

Most of them like to kickbox behind a decent sprawl and some underhooks here and there.

There isnt much US based talent anymore and its a reality they are struggling with and are not sure how to handle. Its two parts, 1. Theres a lot more global MMA talent now than ever before and 2. There is less MMA talent in the US than there used to be, by a lot.

When 1k USD is a middle to upper middle class wage in Brazil, Russia, Caucasus republics, Central Asia, Mongolia, Latin America etc. While 7-8k USD is a middle class wage in the US...these 20k/20k contracts are pretty substantial to certain parts of the world and its absolute poverty for US fighters. Now ask yourself, how do you get to a UFC contract? Its really not that easy, they lower their standards for US talent but generalizing you need about 10 wins professionally, most people in this day and age have a handful or more amateur fights too. So lets say you start training seriously at 15, by 16-18 you get 4-8 amateur fights and between 18-22/23 you amass 10 professional wins and no more than 2 losses...now you fight on the contender series for 5k to show and if you win, you get a sweet 20/20k contract. Its literally INSANELY easier to be a fireman and you'll make 80-130k depending on what state youre in as probationary first year hire, amazing benefits, awesome schedule, tons of room for financial growth, strong retirement etc.

So the UFC has two choices, either 1. Pay more and incentivize the US talent and better athletes in general to come back to the sport so that they can compete and have western stars or 2. Over sign all American prospects, largely undeserving of the opportunity hoping that some out of the many turn out to actually be good while simultaneously avoiding the depth of talent in a lot of the other parts of the world to further hedge. They chose 2, anything to pay fighters less and for them to make more profit.

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

There isnt much US based talent anymore and its a reality they are struggling with and are not sure how to handle. Its two parts, 1. Theres a lot more global MMA talent now than ever before and 2. There is less MMA talent in the US than there used to be, by a lot.

When 1k USD is a middle to upper middle class wage in Brazil, Russia, Caucasus republics, Central Asia, Mongolia, Latin America etc. While 7-8k USD is a middle class wage in the US...these 20k/20k contracts are pretty substantial to certain parts of the world and its absolute poverty for US fighters. Now ask yourself, how do you get to a UFC contract? Its really not that easy, they lower their standards for US talent but generalizing you need about 10 wins professionally, most people in this day and age have a handful or more amateur fights too. So lets say you start training seriously at 15, by 16-18 you get 4-8 amateur fights and between 18-22/23 you amass 10 professional wins and no more than 2 losses...now you fight on the contender series for 5k to show and if you win, you get a sweet 20/20k contract. Its literally INSANELY easier to be a fireman and you'll make 80-130k depending on what state youre in as probationary first year hire, amazing benefits, awesome schedule, tons of room for financial growth, strong retirement etc.

So the UFC has two choices, either 1. Pay more and incentivize the US talent and better athletes in general to come back to the sport so that they can compete and have western stars or 2. Over sign all American prospects, largely undeserving of the opportunity hoping that some out of the many turn out to actually be good while simultaneously avoiding the depth of talent in a lot of the other parts of the world to further hedge. They chose 2, anything to pay fighters less and for them to make more profit.

As always, I appreciate your contributions to these topics, I had not really considered the role that the conversion rates could play but it makes sense. 25K-100K in bonus pay is a step in the right direction, but would undoubtedly stretch so much further if you're from anywhere but stateside, here 25K is much closer to "catch up on credit cards and bills for 6 months" kind of money.



MMA Guru of all people had a video about the decline of the D1 all American wrestler in the current day UFC/MMA landscape.



It used to be the S-tier base for unified rules mma, now it's a Gable here and a Bo there. Gable is athletic enough relative to his weight class that he has way more potential upside for sustained success in MMA.



Bo might as well be a 32 year old taking up boxing for the first time. Slow, a noticeable uncertainty to almost everything he does on the feet and way too inactive to meaningfully make up the ground he needs

 

[HuskySamoan]

As always, I appreciate your contributions to these topics, I had not really considered the role that the conversion rates could play but it makes sense. 25K-100K in bonus pay is a step in the right direction, but would undoubtedly stretch so much further if you're from anywhere but stateside, here 25K is much closer to "catch up on credit cards and bills for 6 months" kind of money.



MMA Guru of all people had a video about the decline of the D1 all American wrestler in the current day UFC/MMA landscape.



It used to be the S-tier base for unified rules mma, now it's a Gable here and a Bo there. Gable is athletic enough relative to his weight class that he has way more potential upside for sustained success in MMA.



Bo might as well be a 32 year old taking up boxing for the first time. Slow, a noticeable uncertainty to almost everything he does on the feet and way too inactive to meaningfully make up the ground he needs

There's more money in wrestling now than there used to be, so guys are staying with it longer post college even if they do not make a world or Olympic team. This is another factor.

UFC doesnt want wrestlers, they do not sign the Russian or Central Asia talent nor do they sign American wrestlers, there was damn near a decade where D1 all Americans and national champs went to Bellator and not the UFC, not a mystery why, they didnt want them. Beyond that, the sport is evolving, moving from wrestling into MMA at 22-23 is honestly pretty late. The reason why Khabib/Islam/Usman etc are so good is because they branched out from wrestling to Judo, Combat Sambo, Muay Thai, Pankration, Hand to Hand combat, Sanda etc etc. All the open/free style type combat systems the ex soviet world has is really beneficial for them, ontop of amateur MMA becoming hugely popular there. Transitioning to MMA with only a wrestling background at 22-23 means theres a good chance you'll never establish the formative and fundamental skills you'll need to be elite at any weight below 185lbs.

Theres a guy Babuli Tsoloev who was a pretty elite Russian wrestler that transitioned to MMA, hes only 25, think he came to MMA around 22, I do not think he will amount to much but he has a way better wrestling base than Khabib or Islam would ever...does it really mean anything? Bo Nickal beat I believe the current worlds gold medalist from Russia lol. MMA just a lot different.

 

[jeff7b9]

What?!?! These motherfuckers are just shedding water weight?!?!

Thats cheatin!!


Some one oughtta march right on up to them and holler a bunch a good intentions at them boys and fix this whole mess right up!!