wrestling reversals/ scrambles

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by gjb0429, Sep 25, 2010.

  1. gjb0429

    gjb0429 White Belt

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    Ever noticed when ur watching a UFC match that, everytime a great wrestler is put on his back (it happens sometimes), he just reverses the position in two seconds and ends back up on top. Alot of these moves are when there isnt even an established position, its more of a scramble. Also, it seems like alot of these moves are not ur typical Bjj sweeps as those come from when two fighters are in an official grapping position (mount, guard, etc.).

    Alot of people say you cant teach scrambling, blah blah. I think thats a load of bullshit, as wrestling is basically the sport of takedowns and scrambles. Im sick of so many MMA gyms that just ignore wrestling except for takedowns. They just assume if u never wrestled in high school that its too late and are perfectly content living in denial and only teaching BJJ.

    I love BJJ and I realize that it is extremely effective, but I feel that if a grappler really wants to get good he should train wrestling just as much as BJJ, especially if hes never wrestled before this will make him a much more complete grappler.


    If wrestlers do so well in MMA, why dont high level MMA schools hire wrestling coaches to teach WRESTLING. ACTUAL WRESTLING. Im not just talking about phony "wrestling" classes at some MMa schools where they just practice takedowns and as soon as the match goes to the ground it becomes a BJJ match.

    I would love to see Wrestling classes at MMA schools that are exactly like the wrestling practices in High school and college. With real live wrestling rolling. I seriously think it would make a BJJ guy a much better grappler within months of some good wrestling training.

    Am I the only one who feels this?

    Where can I learn to wreslte? I want to do both wrestling and BJJ.
     
  2. gjb0429

    gjb0429 White Belt

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    What are these "Wrestling Clinics" that I hear of?
     
  3. Knuckles69

    Knuckles69 Purple Belt

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    I agree with the idea that scrambles are a huge part of wrestling and that BJJ'ers should really look at the technical aspects of the scramble and coming out in dominant position.

    I know it's been something I've been focusing on lately quite a bit.
     
  4. SwitchOrSpladle

    SwitchOrSpladle White Belt

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    Funky Ben Askren is the master scrambler!!!
     
  5. EchoBoomer

    EchoBoomer Banned Banned

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    First of all, I totally agree with you. You might want to check out some local catch wrestling gyms. It is basically wrestling with submissions.

    AUTHENTIC Catch Wrestling - Welcome to ScientificWrestling.com, the best in Submission Grappling!

    Jake Shannon, founder of scientific wrestling, has started a revolution and is bringing back the western culture of catch as catch can. The passive habits of BJJ are bad and catch wrestling is a lot more aggressive sport.
     
  6. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Well a scramble happens as a result of trying to get into or out of a position. there is no real "safety" position if you get taken down so the scrambles generally happen when being taken down or once taken down.

    Anyway you can pick that up in a wrestling club or find some partners and work on grappling and going to guard is not an option. You will be surprised how quickly you pick up the scrambling.
     
  7. Wrathbeans

    Wrathbeans Orange Belt

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    scientific wrestling is to catch as aids is to breakfest cereal.
     
  8. Da Speeit

    Da Speeit CANCEROUS POSTER Platinum Member

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    While there is A LOT of technique and skill behind wrestling, wrestlers in MMA usually being a tier none of us can imagine, sometimes it's just raw body strength and conditioning.

    I was rolling with a friend who is a pure wrestler a couple of days ago, got his back, got a hook in, was working on the second, had my toes on his hips, and he just rolled into it, and burst out of the position (being that i had a hook in and he is quite inexperienced, i ended up in mount, but after watching it on tape it was a beautiful yet spazzy move)

    wrestlers, along with being technically skilled, just have tremendous body strength.

    So when they properly learn positions, they come in at an advantage, because they usually bring forth a great understanding of how to escape or reverse them with the pre-rendered skillset.
     
  9. SLaKKJaW

    SLaKKJaW Blue Belt

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    Wrestling as it is taught in high schools and colleges is not 100% adaptable to BJJ and MMA. The reason most places don't emphasize freestyle and greco-roman wrestling is because then a lot of things have to be "unlearned".

    "Scrambles" don't come from wrestling itself, they come from mat time, strength, speed, explosiveness and philosophy. Wrestlers just happen, in general, to have years more of all of those than BJJ practitioners do.

    And why don't most MMA gyms teach straight wrestling? Because not many people are willing to pay for that. Most people who didn't wrestle in high school and didn't wrestle in college don't want to learn how to wrestle when they are looking for a fighting system. Like I said before... why learn something when you have to unlearn huge parts of it for use in MMA? Wrestlers who start BJJ tend to give up their backs a lot, leave limbs and necks extended, try to push thru everything with strength and end up being caught in push-pull situations. They often times have underdeveloped guards because they hate the idea of being on their backs.

    Plus wrestling scrambles and submission scrambles are different. Different philosophies are involved, different positions are sought after.

    Honestly... if you want to get good scrambles for BJJ and MMA then roll a LOT with strong, athletic and aggressive BJJers and MMAers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2010
  10. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    you should add in some takedowns with pins, honestly that's the best way to learn to scramble.
     
  11. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    Learning how to pull guard and whatnot is fine, especially considering varying competition strategies and what not.... that doesn't mean don't learn BJJ when transitioning to MMA. Boxers stand upright and are susceptible to takedowns, doesn't mean you don't learn boxing. See the flaw in your logic?


    We do start out making these mistakes, but we adapt pretty fast.

    Wrestling is Awesome, and you should do it. Stand up!
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  12. Dake

    Dake Blue Belt

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    I have the same problem. I emailed some local places that were holding wrestling clinics to see if they would be fine with me (21 years old, never wrestled in school) attending, and got a lot of positive responses. I plan to start attending the clinics next month, I'll provide reviews:) Just something you may want to try.
     
  13. CyberFreq

    CyberFreq Blue Belt

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    ....judo?...
     
  14. gjb0429

    gjb0429 White Belt

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    I agree with your point about how some things in wrestling need to be unlearned (example: how wrestlers tend to give up their backs). However, an ideal Wrestling Clinic in an MMA gym would teach you what in wrestling is not good for MMA.

    If you are training MMA you would definatley learn what not to use in wrestling.

    The benefits of the wrestling training would certainly pay off.

    Example: GSP once said that he trains each art seperatley (Boxing, KickBoxing, BJJ, and Wrestling) and only a month or so before the fight does he start to mix them together.

    Im just saying of course there are somethings in wrestling that arent good for MMA but you will quickly learn that in a good MMA gym.


    Lol and heres an example of someone who should learn wrestling. I love the guy and hes an amazing fighter but BIG NOG. Have u ever seen his shitty slow takedowns? He just refuses to learn to wrestle and blindly assumes that BJJ is superior in everyway.

    I would love to see Big Nog takedown Cain Velasquez or Little Nog takedown Ryan Bader. psh.
     
  15. HomerPlata

    HomerPlata Purple Belt

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    I can't do without my daily bowl of Aidybix!
     
  16. Ropes

    Ropes White Belt

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    Probably easier to emphasize scrambling in a wrestling or MMA situation vs a BJJ environment.

    In BJJ people are willing to concede a neutral or top position because they have have many options of attacking from their back/bottom position. The entire premise of a scramble is essentially refusing to concede a position and continuing to wrestle in unorthodox situations or near-scoring positions. The motivator for this in wrestling is because bottom is viewed as a defensive position rather than offensive. Also, being on your back often leads to losing/getting pinned in wrestling, so people continue to wrestle/scramble rather than concede position. Same with MMA: in a judge's eyes more often than not the bottom man is typically losing the fight. In BJJ, bottom can be a very offensive position and therefore the incentive to scramble to avoid being placed there simply isn't as strong.
     
  17. FXG

    FXG Orange Belt

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    we do alot of wreslting at our school, My brother, who is the wrestling coach at the local highschool shows us a lot, but wreslting live is the best way to learn in my opinion. my wrestling has gone from zero to defending against and taking down good 4 year highschool wrestlers. i think it gives you a huge advantage in Grappling tourneys also. Most BJJ schools don't work with high level wrestlers and can't handle their pace or toughness. the first time i used mean head position in a tourney, the guy mentally broke in the first 15 seconds...
     
  18. MMA junkie

    MMA junkie Purple Belt

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    Well he's big and slow in general. :D

    Great fighters train everything.
     
  19. CyberFreq

    CyberFreq Blue Belt

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    I think Ropes nailed scrambling on the head.

    A lot of guys at my gym just don't seem to understand the importance of scrambling because they are just content to go to guard.

    The problem is that, by not scrambling properly, people are slowly unlearning or never learning how to weigh risk vs reward. In a good scramble, you could do anything from end up in top guard to taking his back. If he stops fighting after you get to a 'guard-able' position then he gives up any chances he has of also attaining top position in the scramble.
     
  20. SLaKKJaW

    SLaKKJaW Blue Belt

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    Well... I agree and I don't. Yes, people train "boxing" when training for MMA... but in general it's not the same as training "boxing" for boxing. Stances and weight distribution are slightly different since you need to be able to sprawl in MMA, but not in boxing. Head-movement is different as you can't bob as much in MMA for fear of kicks and knees. You can't just tee-off in the pocket like you can in boxing because you have to be wary of clinches and shots. So.. yeah, MMA fighters train boxing for MMA in the same way they train wrestling for MMA. Similar, but slightly varied principles

    Please don't think I'm bashing wrestling. I'm not. I wish I had done it when I was in school.

    As far as pulling guard... that's what I meant by philosophy. Just because you train BJJ doesn't mean you have to pull guard or even be content with any position. Like I said.. if you train with aggressive guys who like top-game, you'll get quality scrambles even just in BJJ and MMA training.
     

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