Wrestling or BJJ for Muay thai

[Muaythaifighter]

What's up everybody

I have been doing Muay thai for a while and I want to add in some grappling and maybe in the future even compete in MMA. But for now I want to keep training Muay thai and add BJJ or wrestling to it. I have been asking around in the gym, my friends and my coach and the answers were mixed.

Some say learn wrestling first and BJJ comes later, others tell me that I should go for BJJ first because with the muay thai stance in MMA I'm very likely to get taken down and some say you should do both starting NOW.

I already tried both and they're pretty amazing, BJJ I find more technical and you need more know how. Wrestling was more straight forward but made my muay thai practices look like Yoga for seniors.. So exhausting! Mixing both at the same time would be hard both financially and I would only be able to train twice a week in each discipline. I would rather go 4 times to Muay thai and 4 times to Wrestling or BJJ.

Any ideas? Especially from guys that come from a Muay thai background and took grappling later in life. I would love to hear what you guys think I should or what you guys would do if you were in my place.

 

[Gambledub]

There are pros and cons to both imo.

With wrestling your Thai clinch will become a lot better, as well as having a background in MT you will be able to add in clinch strikes to your wrestling game fairly easily. Your takedowns and takedown defence will obviously improve a lot.

With BJJ you will likely get no benefit to your MT game, and you will be weaker at defending takedowns. However you will be able to develop a good bottom game and ability to stay safe on the ground as well as threaten the opponent.

Imo, do BJJ. I think MT is better suited to BJJ personally, as if you lack a bottom game your kicks become a weakness. I personally believe specialization is the best method for MMA success and I think BJJ would let you better implement your MT over wrestling. Focus on developing a defensive guard with good stand ups and a couple of good submissions/sweeps make sure you develop a good guillotine.

Look at fighters like Carlos Condit for a kickboxing based fighter with a great defensive guard, Charles Oliveira and Werdum are great examples of fighters who blend MT and BJJ very well.

 

[Muaythaifighter]

Thank you for your reaction Gambledub the thing is the fighters you mentioned started with grappling first and had more time to develop their bjj. later they added muay thai I tried grappling for a few times now and I find it more difficult than when I started with muay thai.

 

[Badger67]

Grappling is more difficult in a lot of ways. The movements you think would be beneficial, often aren't. This doesn't mean that after say 6 months, you can't get better and better at it.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

Wrestling has more overlap with Mauy Thai and would help you in the clinch. It also would give you more of a work out and better cardio than BJJ. If Mauy Thai is the focus I would train wrestling if I was you.

However, if you want to compete in MMA you will need to do all three , if money is a concern I would recommend paying for bJJ and going to a college club or even highschool and ask to train with the guys there.

 

[Lamfadha]

I actually find because of the Thai Dumps in the clinch anything with clinch trips work really well and BJJ / Judo have those too. Only thing is most of the traditional Judo hip throws are not allowed in Muay Thai.
So if you are aiming for MMA eventually you need to either learn sub defence or how to stay on your feet. Also you can widen the Thai stance into a Kyokushinkai/Dutch Kickboxing style to fend off takedowns and use wrestling if you choose TDD route. It is up to you to choose how you blend your arts man but if there is a MMA gym that has good coaches in your town do that if/when you decide to switch to MMA.

 

[kpoz12]

This is all you need my friend, you're welcome

http://www.thecombatsystem.com/

 

[wordspeaker]

I am not an expert on the subject, but I blieve there are 2 main paradigms for mma to follow.

You either get really good at punching, take downs set up off punches and top game or you get really good at kicking and punching and get REALLY good at bjj.

The fact of the matter is that when you are kicking, you are standing on one leg. and when you are sanding on one leg you generally have pretty poor take down defense. If you throw kicks, you will be taken down some times. Wrestler or no wrestler. So for kicking, I feel that BJJ is a MUST have, focusing on the guard as your first and primary position in training. Ideally, your guard will be so good that you dont care if they take you down,and they are scared to do so, freeing you up to kick and spam take downs of your own with the relative advantage.

This isnt the case for punching. Great wrestlers often have a lot of trouble taking down good wrestlers. In wrestling, and in mma. Its hard work to put someone who is not throwing kicks on the ground. So, if you want to sprawl and brawl to takedown on strikers better than you, perhaps you can get away with less bottom game in your diet.

But just bare in mind that if you do that, you will always be wary of kicking above the waste, and even leg kicks can go wrong. And the day a better top player is able to get you to the ground, you will be in trouble.

Dont get me wrong. Both approaches have their weaknesses. But I think kicking + bottom focus is a better approach. You are more free. And as your defence on the ground and guard grow, you will find it relatively easy to incorporate and improve your own takedowns into your game at a later sage, set up off of good striking and with the confidence that if you get reversed you know what to do. So to me, if you are a halfway decent kicker, it is a complete no brainer. But im no expert. Its just a perspective.

 

[Bataz]

Interesting stuff here. I'm kinda in the same boat however The MMA coach I've gone with runs hid classes in the thai gym I used to fight out of and teaches a mixture of the grappling arts. My stand up game is pretty solid but I'm not planning on throwing many kicks past the waist. Really going to concentrate on my ground game.

 

[rmongler]

So the blueprint it seems for making the classic BJJ/MT combo work in the cage is to, first, be a top 0.1% talent (if not currently possessed by top 0.1% talent, the scientific community is currently prevaricatious on how to ameliorate this status. I personally favor the ritual blood sacrifice of virgins method [starving orphans may be substituted in a pinch]).

Next, once conditions are so met, you must then focus that talent and a large portion of your training time on developing attacking from your back (since falling short even by a little bit means you're fucked since youre relying on fear not ability to prevent tds and there's no plan b and you're already in a disadvantageous position).


It all seems kinda, i dunno, round-about, inelegant.

 

[j123]

You'll need a blend of both for certain situations, but it depends on you really.
Are you likely to end up on your back alot? The traditional MT stance isn't a great stance for takedown defense (80:20 ratio of weigh on rear leg), if you tend to throw teeps regularly and still them scooted / caught, you most likely will end up on your back. If this does happen, I would go with BJJ to at least have some defense on the bottom.

 

[Bobbybackpack]

There are pros and cons to both imo.

With wrestling your Thai clinch will become a lot better, as well as having a background in MT you will be able to add in clinch strikes to your wrestling game fairly easily. Your takedowns and takedown defence will obviously improve a lot.

With BJJ you will likely get no benefit to your MT game, and you will be weaker at defending takedowns. However you will be able to develop a good bottom game and ability to stay safe on the ground as well as threaten the opponent.

Imo, do BJJ. I think MT is better suited to BJJ personally, as if you lack a bottom game your kicks become a weakness. I personally believe specialization is the best method for MMA success and I think BJJ would let you better implement your MT over wrestling. Focus on developing a defensive guard with good stand ups and a couple of good submissions/sweeps make sure you develop a good guillotine.

Look at fighters like Carlos Condit for a kickboxing based fighter with a great defensive guard, Charles Oliveira and Werdum are great examples of fighters who blend MT and BJJ very well.

Most Brazilian fighters do that.

 

[Bobbybackpack]

What's up everybody

I have been doing Muay thai for a while and I want to add in some grappling and maybe in the future even compete in MMA. But for now I want to keep training Muay thai and add BJJ or wrestling to it. I have been asking around in the gym, my friends and my coach and the answers were mixed.

Some say learn wrestling first and BJJ comes later, others tell me that I should go for BJJ first because with the muay thai stance in MMA I'm very likely to get taken down and some say you should do both starting NOW.

I already tried both and they're pretty amazing, BJJ I find more technical and you need more know how. Wrestling was more straight forward but made my muay thai practices look like Yoga for seniors.. So exhausting! Mixing both at the same time would be hard both financially and I would only be able to train twice a week in each discipline. I would rather go 4 times to Muay thai and 4 times to Wrestling or BJJ.

Any ideas? Especially from guys that come from a Muay thai background and took grappling later in life. I would love to hear what you guys think I should or what you guys would do if you were in my place.

You do realise you still need to learn boxing. DO NOT OVERLOOK BOXING!

Bjj and having a good bjj guard should be first priority if you plan on kicking a lot because you'll be vulnerable to takedowns. Still learn wrestling TDD anyways and boxing. Muay Thai fighters don't punch as effectively as boxers and punches are more commonly used than kicks in MMA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

What's up everybody

I have been doing Muay thai for a while and I want to add in some grappling and maybe in the future even compete in MMA. But for now I want to keep training Muay thai and add BJJ or wrestling to it. I have been asking around in the gym, my friends and my coach and the answers were mixed.

Some say learn wrestling first and BJJ comes later, others tell me that I should go for BJJ first because with the muay thai stance in MMA I'm very likely to get taken down and some say you should do both starting NOW.

I already tried both and they're pretty amazing, BJJ I find more technical and you need more know how. Wrestling was more straight forward but made my muay thai practices look like Yoga for seniors.. So exhausting! Mixing both at the same time would be hard both financially and I would only be able to train twice a week in each discipline. I would rather go 4 times to Muay thai and 4 times to Wrestling or BJJ.

Any ideas? Especially from guys that come from a Muay thai background and took grappling later in life. I would love to hear what you guys think I should or what you guys would do if you were in my place.

I'm in the opposite boat where I've grappled most of my life and have just started doing a lot of Muay Thai/Dutch KB in prep for competing in MMA. I'd say if MMA is your goal and you have access to good wrestling, do that. The main things a striker needs to be able to do in an MMA fight in terms of grappling are:

• Not get taken down
• If you do get taken down, get back to your feet
• If you can't get back to your feet right away, don't get pounded out or submitted

Wrestling is what you'll want for the first two of those. The amount of BJJ you need for the third is actually pretty limited. I think I could teach an athletic guy as much BJJ as he'd need for amateur MMA in 6-12 months. You'll probably get more mileage from wrestling, especially because if you start going to BJJ classes you'll learn a ton of extraneous stuff that will not help you with your core goal of KOing people in MMA. Wrestling there will be some, but it will be less.

 

[Sapp]

Should definitely do both. Wrestling is the most important single discipline, but its not complete.

 

[dsdoubled]

I am not an expert on the subject, but I blieve there are 2 main paradigms for mma to follow.

You either get really good at punching, take downs set up off punches and top game or you get really good at kicking and punching and get REALLY good at bjj.

The fact of the matter is that when you are kicking, you are standing on one leg. and when you are sanding on one leg you generally have pretty poor take down defense. If you throw kicks, you will be taken down some times. Wrestler or no wrestler. So for kicking, I feel that BJJ is a MUST have, focusing on the guard as your first and primary position in training. Ideally, your guard will be so good that you dont care if they take you down,and they are scared to do so, freeing you up to kick and spam take downs of your own with the relative advantage.

This isnt the case for punching. Great wrestlers often have a lot of trouble taking down good wrestlers. In wrestling, and in mma. Its hard work to put someone who is not throwing kicks on the ground. So, if you want to sprawl and brawl to takedown on strikers better than you, perhaps you can get away with less bottom game in your diet.

But just bare in mind that if you do that, you will always be wary of kicking above the waste, and even leg kicks can go wrong. And the day a better top player is able to get you to the ground, you will be in trouble.

Dont get me wrong. Both approaches have their weaknesses. But I think kicking + bottom focus is a better approach. You are more free. And as your defence on the ground and guard grow, you will find it relatively easy to incorporate and improve your own takedowns into your game at a later sage, set up off of good striking and with the confidence that if you get reversed you know what to do. So to me, if you are a halfway decent kicker, it is a complete no brainer. But im no expert. Its just a perspective.

Solid post. So you basically have your Donald Cerrone, Anthony Pettis, Carlos Condit style and your Rashad Evans, Rampage, Chad Mendes, DC style.

 

[dsdoubled]

Should definitely do both. Wrestling is the most important single discipline, but its not complete.

I agree. And here's why. I think for the most part, most of us here agree that when approaching an MMA career you have the 2 basic choices:
-Dynamic kicking game plus a strong guard.
-Strong wrestling game coupled with good boxing.

But now think of the fighters that have best blended those archetypes:
-Prime Chuck Liddell in the early to mid 2000s had really heavy hands, great low kicks with the occasional head kick thrown in there, a fantastic sprawl and when he was taken down he was great at popping back up.
-Rumble Johnson at his best was damn near impossible to TD with monster punches and monster kicks.
-Eddie Alvarez was the traditional wrestler/boxer for much of his career until he learned how to implement low kicks and set up the occasional high kick. He also became keen on hurting dudes with strikes and finishing with the choke
-Frankie Edgar also was one of the purest examples of wrestler/boxer but kicks to the legs and body are something he employs in just about every fight for years now. His top game is now even more punishing because of his Bjj which he added later.
-Prime Ben Henderson was almost impossible to take down, harder to hold down, threw heat with his hands, and was constantly punishing with kicks. He was also great at subs and not being subbed.
-Robbie Lawler too. A sprawl n brawler who now kicks and knees a ton.

I could go on, but what do these guys have in common? They all have a strong wrestling background. Im not talking about Olympians here, they just reached a very good level of wrestling and that was the cornerstone of their MMA game. The obvious choice to add to that was punching. Most of the guys that combine kicking games with a good guard started out as kickers and kinda had to learn the guard. So to wrap up, I believe wrestling is the best base for MMA. And to tie in the OP's question. @Muaythaifighter It sounds like you have solidified roots as a MT guy so my advice to you would be to keep working on that for now and develop a great guard. There will certainly be at least 1 wrestler in you Bjj class. When the time comes and your guard is getting good, ask to learn a basic single, double, bodylock/go behind takedowns and drill the shit out of them.

 

[rmongler]

Solid post. So you basically have your Donald Cerrone, Anthony Pettis, Carlos Condit style and your Rashad Evans, Rampage, Chad Mendes, DC style.

Yeah, and the latter have beat the former almost every time.

 

[rmongler]

For some reason a lot people seem to think that clinch fighting and kicking goes together with spending a lot of time on guard, simply because a fair number of fighters happened to do so.

Personally, i think they go together like oil and water.

 

[dsdoubled]

For some reason a lot people seem to think that clinch fighting and kicking goes together with spending a lot of time on guard, simply because a fair number of fighters happened to do so.

Personally, i think they go together like oil and water.

You got me thinking, how many examples can you think of right now of a fighter getting taken down off a kick? Frankie does it well and a few others. But it seems to me that throwing punches leaves you just as vulberable to a level change/shot TD as a kick would. Maybe more. Its all execution. The right fighter can implement any style if its what works best for them. Jose Aldo had great hands, great kicks, and was almost impossible to take down. MMA is so multi-dimensional now that there are examples and counter-examples for every style.