wrestlers and judo guys pick up bjj fast, but the inverse is also true?

[vern_Fonk]

everyone knows that seasoned wrestlers and judo guys pick up bjj really fast, but also notice that the bjj guys can pick up judo and wrestling very quickly? and by bjj guys i mean people who have done it for about 3-4yrs+ and have some familiarity with wrestling through an indirect means via bjj. the same can of course be said for the 3-4yr wrestler (a decent HS wrestler ) or 3-4yr full time in judo-which is a judo black belt. the trend i am guessing is not as noticeable because a lot of bjj guys start bjj later in life and by the time they pick up wrestling/judo , their adaptation cannot be applied as easily in a competitive arena, as opposed to the wrestler who start early in life, then start bjj and immediately produce results in bjj tournaments.
same thing goes for judo- in fact , a lot of high level black belts in bjj are probably brown or even black belt equivalent in judo already and a purple , or even a blue belt can probably grasp the judo principles and advance through the ranks way more quickly than an untrained novice.


i have a few friends who are wrestling in university and they decided to show me some setups to doubles and high c's (the takedowns i was familiar with, but not the intricate setups that they had an encyclopedic knowledge of) and i found that i was picking up the techniques rather quickly and they told me that i was picking it up really fast as opposed to someone who had no prior grappling experience. i also showed them some bjj moves which they picked up quickly (i have 3.5yrs in the bank).

one of them told me a story in which he showed a pretty famous mma fighter and bjj black belt a take down. at first the guy who has an awesome bjj resume , but no wrestling creds, could not understand the technique. but after about 3-4x of drilling, the guy was nailing the takedown as smoothly and as explosively as a seasoned wrestler.

i'm sure that if the tables were turned and this was bizaro world, and bjj was a sport offered in HS's, starting in grade 9 followed by a college career, these bjj guys picking up wrestling (for the sake of arguement, say they only butt flopped this whole time or knew a pretty crappy double) i am sure these high level bjj guys will be able to do extremely well in wrestling tournaments.

thoughts?

 

[TsukinoKage]

Wrestlers tending to be better athletes might be a good reason why.

 

[vern_Fonk]

Wrestlers tending to be better athletes might be a good reason why.

true. a lot of bjj guys are slobs with shoddy work ethics. the black belt in the anecdote is known to be SUPER explosive/athletic. and im pretty athletic myself so maybe that has to something...

 

[phillys-finest]

Imo opinion its harder for a BJJ guy to learn wrestling than vice-versa. One big reason being that BJJ guys are very comfortable on their backs which is exactly how you lose a wrestling match,. Trying a sweep in a wrestling match will get you pinned. Bjj is extremely slow compared to wrestling, all this time thinking and slowly moving and grabbing does not translate well into wrestling. The pace is MUCH faster. No-gi guys however would be better than BJJ guys coming in to wrestling. I also don't agree with you saying these high level Bjj guys would do very well in tournaments either.

Lets have Nick or Nate Diaz wrestle clay quida and tyson after strict wrestling training for 3 months. Results the Diaz bros get destroyed. Or have Vinny from Tuf wrestle Cain V
. The point im trying to make is going from BJJ to wrestling is ALOT harder than going to BJJ from Wrestling.


Also the reason why you learned so quickly is because you actually do a grappling sport compared to someone who doesen't. Thats a given.

You also have ample time to hold someone in Bjj and rest compared to being wet and the difference of the match could be him grabbing you leg.

Last thing Average Wrestler Cardio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Average BJJ Cardio

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

true. a lot of bjj guys are slobs with shoddy work ethics. the black belt in the anecdote is known to be SUPER explosive/athletic. and im pretty athletic myself so maybe that has to something...

Saying that, its not like ALL wrestlers are great athletes, theres bound to be as many bad wrestlers around the place as their is bad BJJers.

Like you said i think it comes down to familiarity. The MMA guy is trained in grappling and takedowns, so of course hes going to pick up new throws quickly.

Think of it this way, in the following diagram:

Each colour represents: Bjj, Wrestling, Judo.
Where the colours overlap, is the familiarity that each form has with the others, and the bit in the middle where they all overlap is the core skills which are native to all 3. All the other bits are skills exclusive to the art which may take a little longer for those outside the practice to pick up.

For example: bridging on your neck is a technique that is likely (not always but mostly) exclusive to a wrestlers repertoire, so its unlikely that a judoka is going to be able to step onto the mat and start bridging on his neck for minutes on end to keep his shoulders off the mat.

However: Judoka have some familiarity with the ground game of BJJ and are likely to pick that up quicker if you show them something, This would be one of the overlaps.

A core skill would be something like weight placement, or hip control i guess.


Long story short, theres always stuff that a one art player is going to pick up quickly from other arts. But theres more stuff out there that they need to work on.
I.e wrestlers seem to come in and dominate BJJ from the get go, because theyre used to controlling guys on the ground, so its easy to teach them how to control and pass. But theyre often rubbish at submission, and may take a while to get that going, but theyll get there in time.


Hope that made sense, probably not but it did in my head

 

[platfox]

Its easier to learn to slow your pace (wrestling to bjj) than it is to fasten your pace (bjj to wrestling) imo. Very possible, but it seems like alot of good bjj guys are so laid back and thats a reflection of training at a slow technical pace. The art becomes your personality. It would be hard to change your personality in that direction.

 

[machadojj]

Its easier to learn to slow your pace (wrestling to bjj) than it is to fasten your pace (bjj to wrestling) imo. Very possible, but it seems like alot of good bjj guys are so laid back and thats a reflection of training at a slow technical pace. The art becomes your personality. It would be hard to change your personality in that direction.

I completely disagree. Guys like Arona, Jacare, would easily be successful at wrestling. Most BJJ guys are used to work their assess off and would definitely pick up wrestling much easier than a person who is starting wrestling and never done a similar art. Whether or not one can measure which picks up faster (a wrestler doing BJJ, or a BJJ guy doing wrestling) I guess is besides the point and truly impossible to determine. However, it should be very clear that a guy that does BJJ would obviously pick up wrestling or judo easier than most people.

 

[Count]

The basics of grappling are all the same regardless of the style. Coordination, spacial awareness, balance, and hip movement. These are the things that the longest for a beginner to learn because they can only be "learned" (to whatever extent an individual can learn these traits) via time on the mat.

So a bjj purple belt will pick up wrestling much faster than a non-grappler because they understand how to use hip movement and balance, plus they have a better developed sense of mat awareness. They couldn't explain any of this to anyone, but it would be natural to their bodies. It doesn't mean that bjj guys could more easily become world class judoka or wrestlers, but they will pick up the basics much quicker than a guy with zero grappling experience.

 

[Cerberus87]

Last thing Average Wrestler Cardio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Average BJJ Cardio

This is 1000% true

 

[Mickey Oneil]

I would def. prefer to have a Wrestling base...before doing Bjj, than vice versa

 

[jyork***]

i bet no one cares, but the mathematician in me needs to clarify, the word would be converse, not inverse

no hate, just a friendly PSA

 

[devante]

in my experience, no; judo guys might be more likely to pick up wrestling more quickly, but in the case of the bjj guy, nope not at all.. Stylistically philosophically and athletically its so divergent from wrestling; judo on the other hand is much more similar, generally, not specifically

 

[judogido]

It's harder for a BJJer to come into wrestling and judo. Anything standup is hard, man.

That's not to say that judo/wrestling is "better" for being more difficult, though - in case some people want to take offense. I know beople who have stuck with BJJ where they have given judo a miss because it was a bit too hard to "get".

There's a lot of extra balance, cardio and co-ordination required in judo/wrestling.That's what judo has such a high turnover of noobies. They come in and realise how hard it is to land even a basic throw in sparring after a few months. They get discouraged and leave.

 

[GracieMMABarra]

It's more a mental thing. Wrestling programs here in America are brutal. They want everything you can give plus more no matter how tried or exhausted. BJJ is the exact opposite of the spectrum. Easy example, is many BJJers in tourneys tend to stay relaxed and wont push themselves even when down points with little time left. Not all, but a lot. Wrestling based grapplers will tend to push it to the bitter end but this is from my experience.

It's easy for a decent/good/great wrestler to go to a BJJ because of their mental toughness. It's hard for many BJJers (like me) to work with wrestling programs because of the intensity.

 

[DPS831]

There aren't nearly as many cases of BJJ guys getting into pure wrestling as there are wrestlers getting into BJJ.

Also, wrestlers can transition well because they can use what they already know (ie: good takedowns, solid base, overall tight control) to win matches on points. Doesn't necessarily mean they have amazing jiu jitsu.

There are plenty of wrestlers in MMA that have been training BJJ for quite some time, and you don't see them pulling off great submissions, for the most part. I'm trying to think of former wrestlers that are known to have considerable submission skills and I can't think of too many; jake shields comes to mind.

And as already stated there are BJJ guys that added wrestling into their game that could hold their own with many good wrestlers, such as Arona, Jacare, Popovitch, etc.

 

[boboplata***]

This is 1000% true

team hammer house disagrees.:icon_lol:

 

[nhlkdog411]

Wrestlers tending to be better athletes might be a good reason why.

This is a ridiculous statement because it doesn't take into account that here in the states wrestling is a high school sport so it draws tons of good athletes where as bjj isn't started by most until they are out of shape adults. Brazil on the other hand has PHENOMENAL athletes in jiu jitsu..probably better than their wrestlers...Babalu was a great wrestler in brazil and he isn't half the athlete vinny magaelhes and Jacare are.

 

[TsukinoKage]

This is a ridiculous statement because it doesn't take into account that here in the states wrestling is a high school sport so it draws tons of good athletes where as bjj isn't started by most until they are out of shape adults. Brazil on the other hand has PHENOMENAL athletes in jiu jitsu..probably better than their wrestlers...Babalu was a great wrestler in brazil and he isn't half the athlete vinny magaelhes and Jacare are.

Dude, I've trained with some very high-level grapplers and they've personally admitted that wrestling practice was physically more grueling than anything, ever.

And your argument doesn't really make sense. We're speaking in general terms, so I'm talking about most wrestlers and most BJJers. Most wrestlers are ridiculously well-conditioned and strong. Many BJJers, even high-level ones, are not necessarily as strong or well-conditioned. In fact, to be completely honest, BJJ is probably one of the laziest full contact sports ever.

And as for the original post, I completely forget to mention rules, which should be obvious. Pretty much everything you can do in wrestling is legal in BJJ. It's the exact opposite the other way.

 

[high right kick]

When I wrestled, the judo guys were always more feared then the bjj guys. Because really in wrestling rules theres nothing the bjj guy can nail you with thats legal, maybe some crazy sweep during a scramble but thats it. The judo guys however could toss you into a pin if you werent careful about what you were doing, and they seem to be just as physically strong as any other wrestler.

just my 2cents.

 

[shinkicker]

Simple fact is that it is easier for Judo guys to go into BJJ as BJJ is near on 80% judo.

I am a judoka and at my Randori class we spend half the lesson on tachi waza (throws from standing) and then half the lesson on new-waza which is ground work and consists of a lot of the techniques that you see in BJJ, we just use the Japanese term instead of the tailored (for example in BJJ a Ude Garami is called a 'Kimura'). So BJJ is in a lot of ways Judo new-waza practiced exclusively.

Now for a BJJ guy to come into judo they are going to have the edge in new-waza, but for foot position and leverage in tachi waza it is going to be totally new ground and they will be beginners again.

I can't comment for wrestling as I never wrestled (wish I had, but we don't practice it in UK schools, college which is a shame).