Would Fighting A Prime Anderson Silva even have been a good idea for GSP?

[AnotherOldGuy]

I think you take the idea of Weight classes too far.
WC's are proven to make the sport fair. Allow smaller fighters to fight against people their own size (as much as possible...I would end weight cutting as well, but that's me).
But fighters that excel at their size SHOULD move up and test themselves against bigger competitors. And I would say this is true for GSP, Silva or Jones.
Heck, Fedor is a prime example that a fighter CAN fight bigger opponents and win. And I am sure all 3 (GSP, Silva and Jon ) could do well at a division above.

but at the same token, what is the point of demanding a middle of the pack fighter up against even bigger & stronger fighters?
no. The top should move. But the journeymen should be able to face people they have a chance to beat.

Suppose there were no weight divisions, what would happen? Likely most of the top 10 positions in the UFC would be HW, with a few LHW's (Jones might even be top three). In the top 50 there'd start to be MW's and maybe even a WW or two. In the top 100 you might see some exceptional LW's start to appear.

And this would be completely in line with other sports. Most of the top NBA players weigh over 205 pounds, same for the NFL and NHL. But some smaller guys would be good enough (even without special size categories) to play in NBA, NFL and NHL.

Or take the 100 meter sprint. Almost all of them have extremely high fast twitch percentages (as unfair as size). But a few with lower fast twitch can make it to the Olympics (though not win a medal) with great running technique (and yes there is such a thing).

The ranking would sort it self out, so that an exceptional WW who could make it to the 86th place ranking would be fighting the exceptional MW who was at 74th place, and have a chance to win. A top 200 journeyman would be fighting another top 200 journeyman, and both would have a chance to win. This is more or less what is done anyway, except we make artificial weight divisions so that 86th place journeyman is now a LW or WW champion.

And why in the world should a fighter making a good living at one weight division risk that to fight a bigger fighter with an increased chance of career ending injury? The only reason I can think of is that weight divisions are artificial and so we want to see what happens if they're not there -- in which case we should just get rid of them altogether and let it sort itself out. Some exceptionally skilled smaller fighters will earn a living fighting without weight divisions, just as some exceptionally skilled smaller basketball players make it to the NBA. This happened in all the combat sports before weight divisions were introduced.

Weight divisions are artificial and arbitrary. But if we're going to have them, then its simply strange to expect fighters to ignore them. I don't blame GSP for not going up to fight Anderson, I don't blame Anderson for not going up to fight Jones, I don't blame Jones for not going up to fight Cain, because right now weight divisions are part of the rules, and it makes no sense to me to blame fighters for following the rules.

 

[Noleggeisha]

I never had respect for GSP because I felt he played it safe from the moment he became champ.

 

[Shaddows]

Suppose there were no weight divisions, what would happen? Likely most of the top 10 positions in the UFC would be HW, with a few LHW's (Jones might even be top three). In the top 50 there'd start to be MW's and maybe even a WW or two. In the top 100 you might see some exceptional LW's start to appear.

And this would be completely in line with other sports. Most of the top NBA players weigh over 205 pounds, same for the NFL and NHL. But some smaller guys would be good enough (even without special size categories) to play in NBA, NFL and NHL.

Or take the 100 meter sprint. Almost all of them have extremely high fast twitch percentages (as unfair as size). But a few with lower fast twitch can make it to the Olympics (though not win a medal) with great running technique (and yes there is such a thing).

The ranking would sort it self out, so that an exceptional WW who could make it to the 86th place ranking would be fighting the exceptional MW who was at 74th place, and have a chance to win. A top 200 journeyman would be fighting another top 200 journeyman, and both would have a chance to win. This is more or less what is done anyway, except we make artificial weight divisions so that 86th place journeyman is now a LW or WW champion.

And why in the world should a fighter making a good living at one weight division risk that to fight a bigger fighter with an increased chance of career ending injury? The only reason I can think of is that weight divisions are artificial and so we want to see what happens if they're not there -- in which case we should just get rid of them altogether and let it sort itself out. Some exceptionally skilled smaller fighters will earn a living fighting without weight divisions, just as some exceptionally skilled smaller basketball players make it to the NBA. This happened in all the combat sports before weight divisions were introduced.

Weight divisions are artificial and arbitrary. But if we're going to have them, then its simply strange to expect fighters to ignore them. I don't blame GSP for not going up to fight Anderson, I don't blame Anderson for not going up to fight Jones, I don't blame Jones for not going up to fight Cain, because right now weight divisions are part of the rules, and it makes no sense to me to blame fighters for following the rules.

Again, the biggest disconnect between us is that you do not allow for exceptions.
And in life, there are exceptions.
Weight classes were created for a good reason. They shall remain.
but fighters who are exceptional should be allowed (and even encouraged) to move up in order to test themselves.
Such is the case for GSP, as it is for Silva (who did move up a few times tpo test himself) and Jon (who attempted and Dana blocked).
Heck, even GSP moved up when he knew there was a weak champion for him to fight against. So I disagree with you on that, and it seems even GSP, the one you are trying to claim shouldn't have been forced to move disagreed with you... only he chose WHEN to move, instead of when it made most sense.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Again, the biggest disconnect between us is that you do not allow for exceptions.
And in life, there are exceptions.
Weight classes were created for a good reason. They shall remain.
but fighters who are exceptional should be allowed (and even encouraged) to move up in order to test themselves.
Such is the case for GSP, as it is for Silva (who did move up a few times tpo test himself) and Jon (who attempted and Dana blocked).
Heck, even GSP moved up when he knew there was a weak champion for him to fight against. So I disagree with you on that, and it seems even GSP, the one you are trying to claim shouldn't have been forced to move disagreed with you... only he chose WHEN to move, instead of when it made most sense.

I'm claiming that neither GSP, Anderson or Jones should be forced to move up (I've been warned several times for criticizing GSP, trust me I'm not one of his fans) -- and Jones is receiving as much criticism for not going up as GSP ever did, and Anderson received almost as much.

If fighters want to go up they should be allowed to do so. Forced to go up when the rules say they're allowed to remain in their weight division strikes me as simply wrong -- its like saying they're allowed to throw kicks, but if their kicks are effective they should be forced to no longer throw kicks because it'd be more challenging if they didn't.

Sport is about winning within the rules, not about seeking artificial challenges (ie giving up something like weight cutting which is allowed). There's a reason the Superbowl favorites don't voluntarily decide not to pass the football because it'd be more challenging to win with just the running game. Fans wanting to see a particular fight shouldn't be something that comes into match-making, any more than the NFL should do a poll to see who should play in the Superbowl.

By far the best way to see fights like GSP-Anderson or Anderson-Jones or Jones-Cain is to get rid of artificial and arbitrary weight divisions. Not only would it remove that barrier, it would get rid of water cutting and all the problems that come with that. If that means the best fighters are big guys then its no different than having all the best players in the NBA standing over 6' tall. Sometimes size matters.

But as you say, we're never going to agree. It was a good, civil discussion.