International Woman takes child from Saudi father and the US backs her.

Lord Coke

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What side do you guys take here? I am pretty uncomfortable with this story. It seems like the mother ran off with the kid from Saudi Arabia and our government is letting her ignore the rights of the father. They had a legal custody agreement. He agreed to let her go to the US with the kid and kept the kid there.
If the tables were turned and a Chinese man ran off with a kid to China we'd want the kid back. What do you guys think?


https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-woman-lost-bitter-custody-134745380.html

  • In 2019, Bethany Vierra lost custody of her daughter to her Saudi ex and was trapped in the country.

  • While her case made international news, she faced intimidation and harassment in the kingdom.

  • She told Insider how she and her child managed to escape to the US and remain there.

  • Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.
On March 7, 2019, Bethany Vierra pulled up outside a coffee shop in downtown Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, feeling apprehensive and scared.

That morning, the American PhD candidate had received a call from a man identifying himself as a high-ranking Saudi government official, saying it was essential that they meet.

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"Send me everything you have on WhatsApp right now," the man instructed down the phone, she recounted to Insider in a recent interview. "We're going to drop a pin and you're going to come there."

Two days before, a story had appeared in The New York Times about a 31-year-old woman in Saudi Arabia - Vierra - whose American family was accusing her ex-husband, a Saudi businessman, of using his power as her residency sponsor to trap her in the country while she sued for full custody of their young daughter, Zaina.

Vierra's ex-husband, Ghassan al-Haidari, had refused to renew her residency card - effectively making it illegal for her to be in the country and unable to travel abroad. Every non-Saudi living in the country, no matter the gender, needs a sponsor to ensure their continued residency.

Within hours of that call, Vierra was departing the coffee shop with a brand new Saudi residency ID card.

"A guy was just ... there, and we exchanged [paperwork]. He gave me the ID. It was creepy," Vierra said.

The Times story appeared to jolt the Saudi government into action, propelling the custody case from a domestic dispute to a political liability involving an American.

Vierra's divorce and custody proceedings were well documented at the time, but now that she is safely out of Saudi Arabia she feels freer to speak of her ordeal.

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Vierra and Zaina pictured in Washington state after leaving Saudi Arabia. Supplied
An escape plan
Vierra moved to Saudi Arabia in 2011 to teach at a women's university, and unexpectedly fell in love with al-Haidari. They married in Portugal in 2013, but divorced in January 2019 following what they both described as domestic unhappiness.

Around four months after the Times story was published, Vierra lost the custody battle, and the stream of news coverage slowed to a drip. But her problems didn't.

Vierra appealed the ruling but the Saudi judge ignored her claim, she told Insider. At this point, the US Embassy in Riyadh intervened and Vierra and al-Haidari, supervised by the judge and US officials, met behind closed doors to sign a joint custody agreement.

Vierra said she had to sign it, as it was her only chance to be there for Zaina.

"That was essentially a life sentence for me. With no power, completely at his mercy, unable to ever leave, I had no option there," she said. "The system failed and I had to reexpose my daughter to that really bad, toxic environment."

But in private, Vierra hatched a plan.


In the weeks that followed, she worked to patch things up with al-Haidari in the hopes that he would grant her and Zaina permission to visit her family in Wenatchee, Washington, in time for Christmas. She started sleeping with him again, she said.

She hoped to win back his trust, which worked: Al-Haidari softened, and granted Zaina and Vierra permission as her sponsor to visit the US.

On December 15, the mother and daughter landed in Seattle and never returned - an outright violation of the joint custody agreement.

A US court is preventing Zaina from being returned to Saudi Arabia
Some 16 months later, Vierra is still in the US and close to ensuring her daughter may never be forced to return to Saudi Arabia - a move that's come in the form of a bold court ruling and a new Washington state law introduced to protect her.

Arriving home in December 2019, Vierra sued for custody of Zaina, now 6, in a Chelan County court, which ruled in her favor on February 8 this year.

The court said it could not return Zaina to Saudi Arabia, as the kingdom often fails to ensure basic human rights in court.

"A legal system that is set up to not only fail to protect but to deny basic human rights ... is not a legal system whose child custody laws this State can honor," Judge Kristen Ferrera wrote in a ruling seen by Insider.

The judgment is significant in that it breaks with a US pledge to return children to their country of origin, as part of the Hague Abduction Convention.

"Normally the US respects court orders, especially when it comes to child custody in foreign countries," Vierra said. "The judgment is incredibly brave, but it's incredibly vulnerable on appeal."

As the case elapsed, Vierra was also lobbying her representatives to introduce unique legislation that would shield her in the courts.

Those efforts paid off, too. On April 14, the state of Washington passed HB 1042, requiring courts involved in foreign custody disputes to consider that country's human-rights record before making a decision. The law specifically considers whether that country punishes people for their religion, politics, or sexual orientation with the death penalty - which Saudi Arabia often does.


"This new law will save lives," State Rep. My-Linh Thai, one of the bill's sponsors, told Insider. "I am pleased that Ms. Bethany Vierra and her daughter Zaina are not put in danger of losing their lives while fighting a custody case."

Meanwhile, al-Haidari is appealing Ferrera's ruling, but Vierra believes his legal argument contains weaknesses that won't stand up to HB 1042. "It completely changes everything," Vierra said of the new state law.

Al-Haidari and his lawyer declined Insider's requests for comment. The Embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, DC, did not respond to requests for comment.

'We must avoid exposing Zaina to these traditions'
After the New York Times story was published, other Western news outlets reported on Vierra's plight, framing her experience as a cautionary tale about the Saudi guardianship system.

Every woman in Saudi Arabia has a male legal guardian who can control parts of their lives, which can include how they access money and who they marry. Al-Haidari was not Vierra's guardian, but her sponsor, as she was not a Saudi citizen.

Saudi guardianship constraints have eased remarkably since late 2019, but Vierra's custody battle came at a time when the kingdom's reputation was taking a hammering.

Months before, the CIA had concluded that the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, had ordered the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi. The kingdom had also been criticized for clamping down on freedom of expression, and denying basic rights to women and minorities.

Throughout the case, Vierra accused the Saudi courts of discrimination, saying she was being unfairly treated because she was a woman and a non-Muslim. Vierra said the judge disregarded video evidence that showed her husband being verbally abusive to her and evidence that he took drugs in front of Zaina.

In the custody ruling, the judge said Vierra was unfit to parent because she was a westerner. "The mother is new to Islam and a foreigner in this country and embraces customs and traditions in the way she was raised," the judge wrote, according to The New York Times. "We must avoid exposing [Zaina] to these traditions."

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Bethany Vierra. Facebook/Myron Vierra
Vierra also said she was subject to "creepy threats."

In one instance, days after receiving her new Saudi residency ID card, Vierra was at her yoga studio when a Saudi man arrived at the door. Vierra recognized him immediately, she said, from parties hosted by Western government officials in the diplomatic quarter.

"We helped you with your ID, so now you're going to delete what you're writing online, from your PhD, your human-rights stuff, you need to delete that," the man said, according to Vierra.

It had been a secret - albeit poorly kept - among her expat friends that Vierra had written about human rights in Saudi Arabia for publications like The Daily Beast and Al-Monitor under a pen name - Bayan Perazzo - and that her PhD focused heavily on human rights.

But "he had no way to know what had happened," she told Insider.

In March 2019, the pro-government newspaper Arab News also fabricated a quote from her, she said, recalling feeling rattled but unable to speak out.

The newspaper cited her as saying: "I'm not trying to politicize my divorce; this is not a guardian issue" in response to her high-profile custody issue, as well as: "I am here to stay in Saudi Arabia." Vierra told Insider she said no such things. Arab News did not respond to Insider's request for comment.

Vierra said that during the custody trial, she also had to be careful of what she said to avoid the wrath of Saudi Arabia's courts and army of Twitter bots, which have been reported to be sanctioned by the Saudi state.

Vierra says she was hounded by those accounts, and remains so to this day. Last month, Hussain al-Gawi, one of Saudi Arabia's most popular journalists, accused Vierra of being a US spy.

The US Embassy is 'frequently involved' in Saudi-American marriages
Vierra's case provides a glimpse into how the State Department reacts when Americans run into legal trouble in Saudi Arabia.

"It happens all the time with these [Saudi-American] marriages," David Rundell, a former chief of mission at the US Embassy in Riyadh, told Insider. "The embassy is frequently involved in these cases."

Vierra told Insider that several US Embassy staff accompanied her to hearings as a show of solidarity, and Rundell said this is not unusual, and not unique to US embassies and consulates around the world.

"We go to the court and we make it clear that the US is supporting its citizen, and we'd appreciate if this lady was allowed to leave," he said. "It's usually not a problem of the mother leaving, it's usually a problem of the child."


But while the US Embassy supported her in some ways, it fell short in others, Vierra said. She said her ex-husband was abusive and that she asked the embassy to protect her daughter in May 2019.

"I went to the US Embassy with my daughter ... and requested protection from the State Department. We were there for 12 hours, and at the end it was rejected," she said.

Throughout the custody case, the embassy also repeatedly told her that its hands were tied until due legal process was completed in the Saudi courts.

Only when Vierra claimed that her appeal to the custody ruling was being ignored did US officials broach the subject with Saudi counterparts, she said.

"The embassy wishes to express its serious concern about the implications of the court's reasoning in this case, which appears to be prejudicial to the rights of American citizens," the embassy wrote to the Saudi Foreign Ministry on July 18, 2019, according to a copy of the letter reviewed by Insider.

A State Department spokeswoman told Insider: "We take seriously our responsibility to assist US citizens abroad, and to provide all appropriate consular services."

"The welfare and safety of US citizens abroad is one of the highest priorities of the Department of State," the spokeswoman said, adding that she could not discuss the particulars of Vierra's particular case due to privacy concerns.
 
Fuck that disgusting ass country. That poor child would be a Damn slave in the desert. She deserves to be in the United States of Goddamn America eating freedom fries whenever she pleases. Unless this causes another spike in gas prices, then fuck that kid, ship her back to bin laden.
 
The woman says that she escaped, which sounds like there may have been some nasty stuff going on back home. I think that the best thing to do is to keep the kid where they can have the best life. Beyond that, I have no input since I don't know all the info. For all we know, the father could be abusive or the mother could be the type to drown her kids in a bathtub. Who knows?
 
The woman says that she escaped which sounds like there may have been some nasty stuff going on back home,
Sounds like “Bethany Vierra” faced a culture shock, didn’t like living in their society and wanted to go back to the US where she grew up in.

None of this would’ve happened if he married a local instead.
 
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What side do you guys take here? I am pretty uncomfortable with this story. It seems like the mother ran off with the kid from Saudi Arabia and our government is letting her ignore the rights of the father. They had a legal custody agreement. He agreed to let her go to the US with the kid and kept the kid there.
If the tables were turned and a Chinese man ran off with a kid to China we'd want the kid back. What do you guys think?


https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-woman-lost-bitter-custody-134745380.html

  • In 2019, Bethany Vierra lost custody of her daughter to her Saudi ex and was trapped in the country.

  • While her case made international news, she faced intimidation and harassment in the kingdom.

  • She told Insider how she and her child managed to escape to the US and remain there.

  • Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.
I'm not saying its right but I can't exactly say I'm surprised that the US embassy would intervene on behalf of a US citizen regardless of right and wrong.

On paper its a pretty clear case of child abduction and most of the time the parent who lees to violate court orders tends to be the one that is framed as being wrong but given the nature of Saudi society its hardly surprising the Western mom is getting some sympathy here.
I think the child should be with the father. That's his seed and we should respect that.
I remember hearing somewhere that even under Sharia law children are supposed to be with their mothers until they are 9 and this girl is 6 and was younger when the custody battle occurred. Then again they agreed to joint custody so its not like the Saudi court took her daughter from her, the plan was joint custody. Then the mom betray the agreement and the father's trust to flee and then lobbies her state government to create a law just to protect her, seems kinda sleazy. But then again maybe the father is a POS and we all know that if he was it wouldn't be surprising if the Saudi courts would protect him regardless.
The woman says that she escaped, which sounds like there may have been some nasty stuff going on back home. I think that the best thing to do is to keep the kid where they can have the best life. Beyond that, I have no input since I don't know all the info. For all we know, the father could be abusive or the mother could be the type to drown her kids in a bathtub. Who knows?
Yeah who really knows, custody battles tend to get ugly and "both sides" will resort to dirty tactics to win.
Doesn't this breach the Hague Convention of which the US is a signatory? Could see this being overturned
The article mentions that and how because of that the ruling in the US that protected her could get overturned on appeal.
 
Sounds like “Bethany Vierra” faced a culture shock, didn’t like living in their society and wanted to go back to the US where she grew up in.

None of this would’ve happened if he married a local instead.
That was pretty much my gut assessment. She saw a wealthy, influential local and he saw an exotic Western woman and they fell for each other for all the wrong reasons and now there's a kid that has to go through their ugly break up with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if she's reaching with her claims of abuse. She claims he "verbally abused" her in front of her daughter but what does that really mean exactly? She also claims he's done drugs in front of his daughter but again what does that mean? Did he simply chew some khat or smoke hookah? Would we deny a man custody rights if he simply raised his voice to his wife and drank beer in front of his kids?
 
The father should have rights to his child. Screw Bethany. She seems like the entitled type of woman who doesn't want to face the consequences of her actions.

You dated a local. Married a local. Got knocked up by the local. Had the local's child. Seems a bit late for "buyer's remorse" when a cursory google search could have told what life might be like.
 
Always funny seeing Sherdoggers' problems with women shine through in threads like these.

I'd just want to see whatever will be the best life for the child, and there's not even remotely enough information to make a judgement on that. I know which country of the two I'd move to if I had to choose though.
 
Always funny seeing Sherdoggers' problems with women shine through in threads like these.

I'd just want to see whatever will be the best life for the child, and there's not even remotely enough information to make a judgement on that. I know which country of the two I'd move to if I had to choose though.
I like OP but can't say I am surprised at his take and I see your point. But I do think it raises some issues.

For one it shows how much of a farce the international human rights regime is. The second its in a position to bind a Westerner to the benefit of a non-Westerner its thrown out as inconvenient. No wonder then that most of the ICC's indictments are of Africans.

The second is, how far does this logic go? Norway has noticeably better quality of life metrics, if a Norwegian mother married to a black American father with an American born son flees to Norway, could she argue that due to a weak welfare state and systemic racism that the child will be better off in Norway and therefore rule in the mother's favor?
 
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Read up on this case. This is my take on it:

- Liberal US female moves to Saudi Arabia around age 24
- Gets a job there
- Dates a local
- Converts to Islam
- Marries the local
- Has a child
- Divorces
- Refuses to live by the law of her adopted land, religion, and culture when doing so inconveniences her

At what point did dumbass Bethany think this was going to end well? After women got the right to drive? After she got a license to open her yoga studio? In the eventuality that Saudi Arabia did away with male legal guardianship of females?

It's comical that a Westerner who converted to Islam expects Western law to shield them from the consequences of their choices. Maybe Bethany should make her five daily prayers to Allah a plea that this matter gets resolved in accordance with his will and the laws governing Islam.
 
Was it a triple talaq divorce, or the more modern version that's like selling an unwanted goat?
In certain muslim countries men can divorce their wife simply by saying talaq 3 times.
 
I think the child should be with the father. That's his seed and we should respect that.


are you essentially saying it's the father's choice over the mother's?

hmm, I dunno man. that's the way it is over there. & that's not something I agree with.

nevertheless, if the woman & child were under duress, & shit can be proven. then I'm all for it. otherwise, yeah, this is a tricky one.
 
That was pretty much my gut assessment. She saw a wealthy, influential local and he saw an exotic Western woman and they fell for each other for all the wrong reasons and now there's a kid that has to go through their ugly break up with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if she's reaching with her claims of abuse. She claims he "verbally abused" her in front of her daughter but what does that really mean exactly? She also claims he's done drugs in front of his daughter but again what does that mean? Did he simply chew some khat or smoke hookah? Would we deny a man custody rights if he simply raised his voice to his wife and drank beer in front of his kids?
This. It’s hard to say what is true as she is incentivized to exaggerate or even lie.
I think it’s a stupid international match that was doomed once sex and being exotic faded. Both are probably having stances that the other cant even understand
 
are you essentially saying it's the father's choice over the mother's?

hmm, I dunno man. that's the way it is over there. & that's not something I agree with.

nevertheless, if the woman & child were under duress, & shit can be proven. then I'm all for it. otherwise, yeah, this is a tricky one.
Except that's not what the Saudi court ruled, the court had them agree to joint custody. She wanted sole custody and the ability to cut her daughter off from the father and when the Saudi court didn't grant that she kidnapped the daughter under false pretenses. The daughter could very well be better off growing up here, that not a hard argument to make. But let's not pretend this dude didn't get screwed over.
This. It’s hard to say what is true as she is incentivized to exaggerate or even lie.
I think it’s a stupid international match that was doomed once sex and being exotic faded. Both are probably having stances that the other cant even understand
In all honesty I doubt he was that bad if all she could come up with was "verbal abuse" and "he used drugs in front of her", especially given the fact that he let her come to America for the holidays.

Oh yeah kids will definitely be safe from open drug use in front of kids in America, nobody ever drinks around kids over here. And parents definitely never raise their voices to each other either.
 
Read up on this case. This is my take on it:

- Liberal US female moves to Saudi Arabia around age 24
- Gets a job there
- Dates a local
- Converts to Islam
- Marries the local
- Has a child
- Divorces
- Refuses to live by the law of her adopted land, religion, and culture when doing so inconveniences her

At what point did dumbass Bethany think this was going to end well? After women got the right to drive? After she got a license to open her yoga studio? In the eventuality that Saudi Arabia did away with male legal guardianship of females?

It's comical that a Westerner who converted to Islam expects Western law to shield them from the consequences of their choices. Maybe Bethany should make her five daily prayers to Allah a plea that this matter gets resolved in accordance with his will and the laws governing Islam.
This case doesn't even have anything to do with guardianship, its related to the sponsorship aspect of their immigration law. And the Saudi court granted her joint custody anyway.
 
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