Wing Chun kicks should be banned in MMA

[shincheckin]

Anything that targets an athletes knees should be banned imo. As someone who ruptured their MCL 10 years ago, I still feel it today.

My favorite thing with the whole knee argument bullshit is how the thais will make a gentlemans agreement of no elbows because of not wanting to injure eachother since they fight for a living and need to fight frequently....but career ending knee shatter kicks are ok. I mean i dont want to cut my opponent cause hes gotta fight next week...ill just discombobulate his knee so hell never fight again instead.

 

[JohnPJones]

My favorite thing with the whole knee argument bullshit is how the thais will make a gentlemans agreement of no elbows because of not wanting to injure eachother since they fight for a living and need to fight frequently....but career ending knee shatter kicks are ok. I mean i dont want to cut my opponent cause hes gotta fight next week...ill just discombobulate his knee so hell never fight again instead.

I thought knee kicks were against the rules in MT.

 

[shincheckin]

I thought knee kicks were against the rules in MT.

In the US targeting the knee is illegal under IKF. I am not sure about thailand, I would imagine its the same, but cannot find any information on it. I can probably find out if I really want to. If its not listed I suppose its legal. Theres been some debate about groin strikes as well, people saying they are legal in thailand. I just find it hard to believe that people will do a gentlemans rule of no elbows, but got no problem kicking eachother in the knee or nuts. as the supposed gentlemans rule of no elbows is because since guys fight for a living and frequently, they dont want to injure each other, so they can fight next week or what not. People tend to readily accept this idea, myself included, however that thought process totally contradicts kicking someones knee and ending their career. like hey dude dont elbow me and cut me, just shatter my knee instead. I have been told on here that thais will teep the knee. I cant say I have really seen any thais specifically targeting the knee, as the teep to the thigh is the target area when people are going to teep the leg. Im sure people have missed the thigh and hit the knee, by mistake or intentionally. Im sure video evidence can support a teep to the knee but most likely a "one off". I have yet to see anyone in MT specifically target the knee multiple times in a fight.

 

[Woldog]

In the US targeting the knee is illegal under IKF. I am not sure about thailand, I would imagine its the same, but cannot find any information on it. I can probably find out if I really want to. If its not listed I suppose its legal. Theres been some debate about groin strikes as well, people saying they are legal in thailand. I just find it hard to believe that people will do a gentlemans rule of no elbows, but got no problem kicking eachother in the knee or nuts. as the supposed gentlemans rule of no elbows is because since guys fight for a living and frequently, they dont want to injure each other, so they can fight next week or what not. People tend to readily accept this idea, myself included, however that thought process totally contradicts kicking someones knee and ending their career. like hey dude dont elbow me and cut me, just shatter my knee instead. I have been told on here that thais will teep the knee. I cant say I have really seen any thais specifically targeting the knee, as the teep to the thigh is the target area when people are going to teep the leg. Im sure people have missed the thigh and hit the knee, by mistake or intentionally. Im sure video evidence can support a teep to the knee but most likely a "one off". I have yet to see anyone in MT specifically target the knee multiple times in a fight.

It's not illegal they just rarely do it. It's common for Thai fighters to go to places like Papua New Guinea for a fight and have their knees targeted almost exclusively.

 

[Dan Torrance]

It's not illegal they just rarely do it. It's common for Thai fighters to go to places like Papua New Guinea for a fight and have their knees targeted almost exclusively.

by other muy thai fighters?

 

[shincheckin]

It's not illegal they just rarely do it. It's common for Thai fighters to go to places like Papua New Guinea for a fight and have their knees targeted almost exclusively.

not sure which governing body your referring to in the US, but under the IKF. It is illegal for a fact. They made it illegal a few years ago when there was all the controversy about it. Not sure about the rules in papua new guinea, but I was referring to fighting in thailand.

KICKS & STRIKES

• KNEES
  • SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW KNEES - CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL STATE COMMISSION.
    
    
  • Knees may not be Allowed in a Modified Muay Thai Rules bout since the term "MODIFIED" indicates something has been taken away.
  • Knees are Only Allowed Below the Shoulder Line - Body and Legs. (No Groin of course)
    • No strikes are allowed to the groin or joints -Knees- of the leg.
    • Kicks are not allowed to a fighters knees.
    • Direct Side Kick Style kicks to the front of a fighters legs Are NOT ALLOWED.

 

[Woldog]

not sure which governing body your referring to in the US, but under the IKF. It is illegal for a fact. They made it illegal a few years ago when there was all the controversy about it. Not sure about the rules in papua new guinea, but I was referring to fighting in thailand.

KICKS & STRIKES

• KNEES
  • SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW KNEES - CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL STATE COMMISSION.
    
    
  • Knees may not be Allowed in a Modified Muay Thai Rules bout since the term "MODIFIED" indicates something has been taken away.
  • Knees are Only Allowed Below the Shoulder Line - Body and Legs. (No Groin of course)
    • No strikes are allowed to the groin or joints -Knees- of the leg.
    • Kicks are not allowed to a fighters knees.
    • Direct Side Kick Style kicks to the front of a fighters legs Are NOT ALLOWED.

I was talking about in Thailand.

 

[TheMaster]

I agree with with the opinion that the heel hook is far more dangerous than a kick to the knee

A heel hook can be dangerous for sure but not necessarily more damaging than a direct front stomp or side stomp to the weight bearing knee. Whats the criteria for danger? The kick has hospitalized and required surgery for several UFC fighters already.

It's also about likelihood. To do a heelhook you have to be a submission fighting master and be able to get that position which is not so easy in MMA.

The knee stomp is there all day especially against people who use a more boxing approach and lean in on the jab.
The traditional Muay Thai stance is weight on the rear foot and front foot light (same as traditional WC) so the risk isn't there for the front knee but this stance is too easy to shoot in on so has to be modified to more 50-50 for MMA.

For the knee kick figure also that there is basically no time to brace against impact or resist,whereas for a heel hook you have at least some chance to resist , the force is applied more gradually and there is a usually a chance to tap. Still the fact it's banned in many grappling tourneys shows the risk of injury.

Now factor in that a heel hook is done with both lying in the ground,whereas a knee stomp is done when the entire body weight is on the knee when standing as it is kicked through and collapses.

Sonnen here discussed both. He is view is that veteran fighters generally want it banned.
Non-fighters who never competed may want to keep it in, and he says fighters who compete but don't want it banned are basically 'defending a mindset not logic'.

 

[shincheckin]

well if anyone is interested, and you can take this for what its worth, and make your own decision on whether targeting the knee and groin is legal in thailand or not. Not too sure how much of it is internet myth or not. I had never heard of such a thing until I came to sherdog.

Anyways I went ahead and asked my old coach, he has fought at lumpinee stadium before (the old stadium). According to him, at lumpinee stadium, it is illegal to target the knee or groin, those were the rules he fought under. For myself, being able to target those areas sound odd, and I have a source of information from someone who has fought there saying its illegal. So that is what I will choose to believe.

 

[shincheckin]

i can agree with some of it, just not WC slipidy slap follow up strikes.

 

[JohnPJones]

A heel hook can be dangerous for sure but not necessarily more damaging than a direct front stomp or side stomp to the weight bearing knee. Whats the criteria for danger? The kick has hospitalized and required surgery for several UFC fighters already.

It's also about likelihood. To do a heelhook you have to be a submission fighting master and be able to get that position which is not so easy in MMA.

The knee stomp is there all day especially against people who use a more boxing approach and lean in on the jab.
The traditional Muay Thai stance is weight on the rear foot and front foot light (same as traditional WC) so the risk isn't there for the front knee but this stance is too easy to shoot in on so has to be modified to more 50-50 for MMA.

For the knee kick figure also that there is basically no time to brace against impact or resist,whereas for a heel hook you have at least some chance to resist , the force is applied more gradually and there is a usually a chance to tap. Still the fact it's banned in many grappling tourneys shows the risk of injury.

Now factor in that a heel hook is done with both lying in the ground,whereas a knee stomp is done when the entire body weight is on the knee when standing as it is kicked through and collapses.

Sonnen here discussed both. He is view is that veteran fighters generally want it banned.
Non-fighters who never competed may want to keep it in, and he says fighters who compete but don't want it banned are basically 'defending a mindset not logic'.

1. Lots fighters end up getting surgery after fights for a variety of reasons should we ban every technique that has caused a fighter to get surgery?
2. If your style is front foot heavy that’s your choice (sort of like it’s your choice to risk a broken shin while doing a leg kick.) adjust your stance or accept the risk that comes with your chosen stance…however thus far front foot heavy stances have not been an issue.
3. Why would someone want to brace against a knee kick? That’s the exact opposite of what you should do. There is however plenty of time to react to it.

sonnen’s opinion of fighters who defend it is irrelevant, and the fact that he doesn’t like it is his opinion only.
After that knee he ate from chinzo I wouldn’t be surprised if he lobbied for knees to the head to be banned as well.

 

[TheMaster]

1. Lots fighters end up getting surgery after fights for a variety of reasons should we ban every technique that has caused a fighter to get surgery?

It's about risk of injury/amount it is thrown. It's a high injury risk move relative to the amount it is used unlike a punch for example.

2. If your style is front foot heavy that’s your choice (sort of like it’s your choice to risk a broken shin while doing a leg kick.) adjust your stance or accept the risk that comes with your chosen stance…however thus far front foot heavy stances have not been an issue.

The kick has only started being used recently as a finishing strike and still only by a few. If it became more commonly used and trained it would become a problem and probably lead more calls for a ban and until then modifying stances to avoid front leg heavy.

3. Why would someone want to brace against a knee kick? That’s the exact opposite of what you should do. There is however plenty of time to react to it.

Depends on the angle. If it was directly in front of course you would want to brace against it if you couldn't move in time.
If it was more from the side when it hit you would also want to brace but it's difficult. What other defence is there apart from don't get hit? Maybe try to roll with it but I don't see that working that could likely end up worse since it targets a joint.

I don't see how there is plenty of time to react either lol. If you could see it coming try move the knee yes but it's a low kick and quite straight so mainly outside of the field of vision. It's harder to read than a low Thai round kick which is already hard to read.

sonnen’s opinion of fighters who defend it is irrelevant, and the fact that he doesn’t like it is his opinion only.

He says most experienced fighters he speaks to think it should be banned.
It's also banned in kickboxing and Muay Thai as we have seen.
Not hard to see why if you want a competitive roster. It's a self defence move not sport move.

 

[JohnPJones]

It's about risk of injury/amount it is thrown. It's a high injury risk move relative to the amount it is used unlike a punch for example.

The kick has only started being used recently as a finishing strike and still only by a few. If it became more commonly used and trained it would become a problem and probably lead more calls for a ban and until then modifying stances to avoid front leg heavy.


Depends on the angle. If it was directly in front of course you would want to brace against it if you couldn't move in time.
If it was more from the side when it hit you would also want to brace but it's difficult. What other defence is there apart from don't get hit? Maybe try to roll with it but I don't see that working that could likely end up worse since it targets a joint.

I don't see how there is plenty of time to react either lol. If you could see it coming try move the knee yes but it's a low kick and quite straight so mainly outside of the field of vision. It's harder to read than a low Thai round kick which is already hard to read.


He says most experienced fighters he speaks to think it should be banned.
It's also banned in kickboxing and Muay Thai as we have seen.
Not hard to see why if you want a competitive roster. It's a self defence move not sport move.

The technique is not higher risk than any other technique.
It’s been in savate for quite awhile with no issues at all, yet people like you keep trying to make shit up about how it’s sooo deadly and dangerous

 

[Dowdy]

It's not a wing chun kick.

No where near it

 

[TheMaster]

It's not a wing chun kick.

No where near it

According to who?
It's exactly the Wing Chun kick, and Jones very likely learned it from someone who got it from there or from imitating what he saw in Bruce Lee movies.

The technique is not higher risk than any other technique.

Evidently thats not the case otherwise there wouldn't be a huge debate about it.

It’s been in savate for quite awhile with no issues at all

And look how they train it in Savate. Real Savate has shoes they don't throw kicks with full intent.

yet people like you keep trying to make shit up about how it’s sooo deadly and dangerous

I'm amazed that people like you who are not fighters and never have been fighters, can be so loudmouthed about their opinion of keeping the kick in when numerous longtime professional MMA fighters, Professional Kickboxing and Muay Thai Organizations and even former amateurs in this thread all either ban it or agree it should be banned.

Maybe time to look at yourself and what the actual reasons are for why you are so against common sense and majority actual fighter opinion.

 

[thugpoet]

Anything that targets an athletes knees should be banned imo. As someone who ruptured their MCL 10 years ago, I still feel it today.

So knee bars and heel hooks too right?

 

[Woldog]

So knee bars and heel hooks too right?

Sure why not. Knee injuries are one of the few injuries that affect your quality of life for the rest of your life.

 

[Dan Torrance]

Sure why not. Knee injuries are one of the few injuries that affect your quality of life for the rest of your life.

have you tried stem cell injections?

 

[DoctorTaco]

So knee bars and heel hooks too right?

Common sense dictates that heel hooks are used in competition far more often than knee kicks and to a much more detrimental effect.

But this is a wing Chung thread so dont expect any common sense here.

 

[TheMaster]

Common sense dictates that heel hooks are used in competition far more often than knee kicks and to a much more detrimental effect.

Yes they are dangerous.
Which is why heel hooks are banned in most grappling tourneys (including a recent Catch one that Josh was promoting) and leg locks are banned in Judo outright and only advanced belts train them in BJJ.
In MMA Sonnen was making a case heelhooks should be banned also. My view is the knee stomp is easier to hit in MMA by more fighters though than a heel hook since it's available from standing not a specialist ground position so probability is factor.
More dangerous? It depends, torque vs high impact with body weight resting on the knee.