Will Start Training Judo as a 30 year old. Any Advice? UPDATE: I'm back at it!

[Zankou]

Love the update. Judo for two years is a great base for not being completely terrified of standup grappling in BJJ, so it’s very valuable even if you don’t keep with it long term.

Also I totally agree that throwing, more often than not, is worse for you than being thrown. Picking up and throwing some 200 pound dude who is fighting like the devil not to be thrown, while you are balanced on one foot, is not health beneficial.

 

[TheMaster]

Love the update. Judo for two years is a great base for not being completely terrified of standup grappling in BJJ, so it’s very valuable even if you don’t keep with it long term.

Also I totally agree that throwing, more often than not, is worse for you than being thrown. Picking up and throwing some 200 pound dude who is fighting like the devil not to be thrown, while you are balanced on one foot, is not health beneficial.

Bizaare statement here. BJJ standing grappling is for the most part embarassingly bad or non existant in many schools.
Judo training is a great base if u want to completely own the standing grappling department compared with BJJ and work hitting top position when it goes to the ground.

UPDATE

Alright guys so as the title says it's been sometime since i have joined Judo and here are my thoughts after an academic year and after receiving my yellow belt:

1) Judo is rough on the body. I knew i was in for some pain but good lord everything hurts. My frigging hands hurt, shoulder got messed up the other day and i already broke a rib! The rib issue is actually from Newaza so i won't fault it as some Judo specific issue but STILL! Coming from a history of low back issues i was very cautious not to sign up for anything that would compromise or reinvigorate past issues and overall i did say that Judo was more or less back friendly but i have since reconsidered that sentiment. I changed my mind not because of the impact from throws but due to the CONSTANT flexion of practicing throws. The back is essentially a piece of steel and as such it has a finite amount of bends before it snaps and th constant repetition of loaded spinal flexion just doesn't seem feasible In the long run.

2) I love practicing Newaza more than Tachiwaza. Truth is I just love doing newaza way more than tachiwaza and I'm not so sure that's a great attitude to have going in to class but I just can't help it.

3) sinking in a throw = one of the greatest feeling in the world. Yes I did just finish saying I prefer Newaza to tachiwaza but there are very few things in this world that feel better than a nicely connected throw.

4) I'm not giving it up just yet. I'm not going to give it up just yet but I don't think I will be continuing for years to come. I think this is a solid base for grappling and judo is a beautiful martial art but I just don't think my body will be able to handle it in the long run.


Not saying you guys care but I wanted to update you anyways. I really think Judo is amazing but I feel that between this and my true love (lifting) I won't be in the game long and I want something I can fully dedicated myself to. BJJ may be a better fit for me in the long run but I'm not done my Judo journey just yet and I may very well change my mind about it but as it stands, this is how I feel.

BJJ can also be terribly stressful for spine, most top guys have hernias.
The 'soreness' u feel from Judo is your body still adapting. It will get better if u stick with it. As u improve rank then u will get more efficient in your motions and sensitivity.

I agree throws are thing of beauty, like water.

There is also research on which throws are more back friendly in the longterm. Stay away from uchi mata for example.

Practice core flexibility and strengthening.

See high ranking older practitioners and how they practice. Even try to visit the Kodokan one day. The spiritual home of Judo and its offshoots BJJ and Sambo.

Budo.

 

[DatCutman]

There is also research on which throws are more back friendly in the longterm.

Source, for an older dude looking to keep his back alive?

 

[Balto]

Bizaare statement here. BJJ standing grappling is for the most part embarassingly bad or non existant in many schools.
Judo training is a great base if u want to completely own the standing grappling department compared with BJJ and work hitting top position when it goes to the ground.

Zankou's statement rings true to me. It's funny because it's exactly the opposite of the perception on forums (it seems to defy logic even), but I've seen it in real life so many times now it's hard to deny.

BJJ guys just have significantly better standup than people think. I have seen so many random Brazilian dudes who have little/no connection to Judo/Wrestling shut down decent guys from those sports in standup grappling it's crazy. It looks way different because the BJJ guys stall a lot, but in the end the BJJ guys defend well and even get counters.

Pretty much all the big name crossovers at a high level in BJJ (there aren't that many to begin with) show the same effect. They do not dominate the standup game and actually get countered a decent amount. For example Yuri Simoes took down Travis Stevens a few years ago in a gi match. On paper that should be an impossibility but it did indeed happen.

Judo is probably the least effective way to get takedowns in BJJ. I say that as someone who loves Judo and goes for a lot more throws than most in BJJ. But I have to recognize that it's just a personal thing that I like and not really very effective from a risk/reward standpoint.

Wrestling fares a little better, but again not nearly as much as people seem to think. I've seen collegiate wrestlers struggle to get takedowns on a lot of guys in their division even at the lower belts. I don't have a great explanation for it other than things are just different when the rules don't have the same stalling calls.

Wrestling and Judo not being that powerful for takedowns in BJJ is just one of those counter intuitive things you eventually learn to accept over the years I think. They are great to crosstrain (I've been lucky to have a lot of opportunities in my time and always took them) and they certainly help. But the idea that someone from Judo can just walk into BJJ and start dominating in standup does not materialize much in the real world from my experience.

 

[TheMaster]

Zankou's statement rings true to me. It's funny because it's exactly the opposite of the perception on forums (it seems to defy logic even), but I've seen it in real life so many times now it's hard to deny.

BJJ guys just have significantly better standup than people think. I have seen so many random Brazilian dudes who have little/no connection to Judo/Wrestling shut down decent guys from those sports in standup grappling it's crazy. It looks way different because the BJJ guys stall a lot, but in the end the BJJ guys defend well and even get counters.

Pretty much all the big name crossovers at a high level in BJJ (there aren't that many to begin with) show the same effect. They do not dominate the standup game and actually get countered a decent amount. For example Yuri Simoes took down Travis Stevens a few years ago in a gi match. On paper that should be an impossibility but it did indeed happen.

Judo is probably the least effective way to get takedowns in BJJ. I say that as someone who loves Judo and goes for a lot more throws than most in BJJ. But I have to recognize that it's just a personal thing that I like and not really very effective from a risk/reward standpoint.

Wrestling fares a little better, but again not nearly as much as people seem to think. I've seen collegiate wrestlers struggle to get takedowns on a lot of guys in their division even at the lower belts. I don't have a great explanation for it other than things are just different when the rules don't have the same stalling calls.

Wrestling and Judo not being that powerful for takedowns in BJJ is just one of those counter intuitive things you eventually learn to accept over the years I think. They are great to crosstrain (I've been lucky to have a lot of opportunities in my time and always took them) and they certainly help. But the idea that someone from Judo can just walk into BJJ and start dominating in standup does not materialize much in the real world from my experience.

Well, if what u r saying is a true observation ( I have serious doubts or you are simply overstating) it may be the 'oulier' effect; like how relatively newbie submission trained amateur wrestlers can place highly or even win abu dhabi.

Otherwise, I am happy to see the magical effect u observe doesnt hold true at all in actual mma, where wrestlers and the Judoka who have competed generally dominate standing grappling and takedowns (and often ground grappling/GnP also )against BJJers and anyone else.

 

[Balto]

I think it is pretty clearly observable at a high level in BJJ. I already gave a good gi example recently. In no gi AJ Agazarm takes a lot of matches, but I don't think he's shown to be extremely dominant in standup grappling. I know he was not a standout D1 wrestler, but he did train and compete a bit at that level. Also old school ADCCs had some pretty good wrestlers in there that did well but not nearly as dominant as it might seem if you watch the matches.

Are there any counter examples in BJJ to cite? Are there any crossover guys that we can count on getting takedowns against just about anyone who dares to stand with them? I can't think of any right now.

MMA is a different animal than BJJ/Judo/Wrestling so it's a much more neutral playing field. Wrestlers do great. However even there you see all the time lots of things that seem impossible on paper.

Take Askren vs Lawler that just happened a little bit ago. Which man got a huge takedown early in the fight? Somehow it wasn't who should have gotten a huge takedown on paper right?

I'm not trying to make a "BJJ is the best" point. I'm trying to make the point that a lot of the so called obvious strengths/weaknesses of various grappling forms end up being muddled when actually put to the test. It works the same way for BJJ too. BJJ groundwork is nowhere near as dominant against Wrestling/Judo as people talk it up to be.

There are a lot of surprises out there period. After years of being shocked to see these things, I've started to come around to thinking these types of surprises are a lot more normal than we tend to think.

 

[asian-glow]

I grappled with a guy who was my weight and size who did no bjj but wrestled for many years. I seriously wondered if I had wasted my time studying bjj instead of wrestling. We even started on the knees.

 

[Balto]

I grappled with a guy who was my weight and size who did no bjj but wrestled for many years. I seriously wondered if I had wasted my time studying bjj instead of wrestling. We even started on the knees.

I've seen this more than a few times as well -- Judo/Wrestling guys who are beasts on the ground with little to no BJJ experience.

Overall I just think different forms of grappling level out a lot more than we expect. On paper BJJ guys would be submitting everyone instantly on the ground, Wrestling would own no gi, and Judo guys would be immediately tossing anyone who grabbed their gi from standing. In reality I've found it does not happen like that and instead tends to even out in some surprising ways.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I grappled with a guy who was my weight and size who did no bjj but wrestled for many years. I seriously wondered if I had wasted my time studying bjj instead of wrestling. We even started on the knees.

I just rolled with a marine high school wrestler... crazy strong crazy neck strength, tapped him 3 times in 5 minutes, he also been training bjj for like 6 months... oh and is 18 years younger than me, and I am no world beater. I’m quite sure I’ve not been wasting my time... watching Marcelo Garcia running through mike van arsdale in 2003 should have given you a clue about that already.

But as Balto said, grappling is grappling... unless your doing some type of wrestling that do not involve ground grappling, a biker isn’t going to magically sub a wrestler as soon as they touch the ground, and the wrestler isn’t going to magically toss around a competente bjjer...

 

[asian-glow]

I just rolled with a marine high school wrestler... crazy strong crazy neck strength, tapped him 3 times in 5 minutes, he also been training bjj for like 6 months... oh and is 18 years younger than me, and I am no world beater. I’m quite sure I’ve not been wasting my time... watching Marcelo Garcia running through mike van arsdale in 2003 should have given you a clue about that already.

But as Balto said, grappling is grappling... unless your doing some type of wrestling that do not involve ground grappling, a biker isn’t going to magically sub a wrestler as soon as they touch the ground, and the wrestler isn’t going to magically toss around a competente bjjer...

I'm just relating my experiences is all. I was also just trying to say that for people who've never been formally taught a guard pass or any top technique, the 2 wrestlers who come to mind were giving me a pretty hard time. They would do really well with everyone else in the room too. Granted they had no bottom game but neither do most people who I encounter. I would easily trade my bottom game to be better at takedowns, given my goals.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I grappled with a guy who was my weight and size who did no bjj but wrestled for many years. I seriously wondered if I had wasted my time studying bjj instead of wrestling. We even started on the knees.

To be fair I have gone to BJJ and judo gyms and have held my own fairly decently for someone who has had no formal training (until now that is). I don't walk through people but I definitely am able to control the situation, pass gaurds and have had many people ask if I have trained in the past. Some people just have an affinity for it. Once someone applies a submission though I'm pretty fucked. I will say though that the way I naturally grapple seems alot like a wrestlers style. I reach and grab for limbs not the GI.

Tachiwaza though is a completely different story. I can not hold my own at all and I get dummied in class all the time

 

[dimmyfinster]

I've seen this more than a few times as well -- Judo/Wrestling guys who are beasts on the ground with little to no BJJ experience.

Overall I just think different forms of grappling level out a lot more than we expect. On paper BJJ guys would be submitting everyone instantly on the ground, Wrestling would own no gi, and Judo guys would be immediately tossing anyone who grabbed their gi from standing. In reality I've found it does not happen like that and instead tends to even out in some surprising ways.

I think it's because of cross training and differences in sport.

At white and blue belt, in local IBJJF tournaments, wrestlers and judoka do dominate the takedowns from what I've seen.

At the top level no, and that's because BJJ guys have been training anti judo and anti wrestling. Uniform changes with wrestling mean a lot when he margins are so small, as do judo's rules.

To me is the another version of the Gracie slogan "if they beat is it's because they trained jiujitsu"

 

[dmwalking]

Make sure you get good at break falls. Otherwise expect bad things. They may seem odd but they're taught for a reason. Also, stick to it. It's a tough game.

 

[RJ Green]

Picking up and throwing some 200 pound dude who is fighting like the devil not to be thrown, while you are balanced on one foot, is not health beneficial.

 

[DatCutman]

Picking up and throwing some 200 pound dude who is fighting like the devil not to be thrown, while you are balanced on one foot, is not health beneficial.

Who wants to live forever?

 

[Zankou]

Who wants to live forever?

I’m not saying don’t do it. To die without having cleanly thrown somebody with osoto at least once is to die a virgin. That’s no form of life.

 

[mcgoatp4p#1]

UPDATE

Alright guys so as the title says it's been sometime since i have joined Judo and here are my thoughts after an academic year and after receiving my yellow belt:

1) Judo is rough on the body. I knew i was in for some pain but good lord everything hurts. My frigging hands hurt, shoulder got messed up the other day and i already broke a rib! The rib issue is actually from Newaza so i won't fault it as some Judo specific issue but STILL! Coming from a history of low back issues i was very cautious not to sign up for anything that would compromise or reinvigorate past issues and overall i did say that Judo was more or less back friendly but i have since reconsidered that sentiment. I changed my mind not because of the impact from throws but due to the CONSTANT flexion of practicing throws. The back is essentially a piece of steel and as such it has a finite amount of bends before it snaps and th constant repetition of loaded spinal flexion just doesn't seem feasible In the long run.

2) I love practicing Newaza more than Tachiwaza. Truth is I just love doing newaza way more than tachiwaza and I'm not so sure that's a great attitude to have going in to class but I just can't help it.

3) sinking in a throw = one of the greatest feeling in the world. Yes I did just finish saying I prefer Newaza to tachiwaza but there are very few things in this world that feel better than a nicely connected throw.

4) I'm not giving it up just yet. I'm not going to give it up just yet but I don't think I will be continuing for years to come. I think this is a solid base for grappling and judo is a beautiful martial art but I just don't think my body will be able to handle it in the long run.


Not saying you guys care but I wanted to update you anyways. I really think Judo is amazing but I feel that between this and my true love (lifting) I won't be in the game long and I want something I can fully dedicated myself to. BJJ may be a better fit for me in the long run but I'm not done my Judo journey just yet and I may very well change my mind about it but as it stands, this is how I feel.

Similarly, I took judo for 2 years, went somewhat consistently, but after a while I realized it wasn't for me. Too painful, too stressful. So I took up BJJ 6 years ago and it was a much better fit.

 

[NoSmilez]

BJJ guys aren't good at "pretty" throws but they take a bent over stance when they standup as opposed to Judo guys who are more upright. For me it's easier to stall and counter than to actively seek the throw.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I’m not saying don’t do it. To die without having cleanly thrown somebody with osoto at least once is to die a virgin. That’s no form of life.

It was actually exhilarating the first time I landed an ippon seonagi. But it wasn't in randori just practice but it still felt like a hot knife through butter baby!

 

[RJ Green]

soon you'll be able to hit it every time
then smoother
then in randori
then in randori at will
then in randori at will and it'll feel like butter ON PURPOSE and you'll be like "...NUHUH!!" and then get all in your head about getting it like that every time
and then it'll dawn on you that you can barely do it on the other side